Godly Women · Submission · Traditionalist Bird

Maybe he Really is Passive and that is OK

This again touches on how women have to do something before a man can lead. In this case she has to give up the reins or get out of the driver seat before he can lead. Truth is if he is a leader, has that strong commanding presence, all it will take is one look from him and he can essentially push her out of that seat. A captain does not wait for his first officer to get out of his seat.
However, some men for years of their marriage will just pace back and forth waiting for her to get out of that seat so he can sit down. If a man does that, wait that long to claim his position, he is passive–not assertive, not a leader.

“Of course, controlling women will tell you that they must be controlling for anything to get done because their husbands are so passive. But it’s worth asking ourselves, “Am I controlling because he’s so passive, or is he passive because I’m so controlling?”

Both of these questions assume one constant — a passive man. The question and frustration is about why is he passive? The traditional answer is because the woman must be doing something wrong–like controlling or manipulating. Its never considered that maybe the man is just passive. Period. Maybe he doesn’t like or want to lead, maybe he wants to be the submissive one. Maybe he likes his wife taking charge. Maybe being raised in a feminist culture, he never knew any other way and its comfortable to have a more feminized approach with women.

It probably isn’t what women want to hear–that their man is a natural submissive or passive person and does not have the inclination to lead. That is the root problem that needs to be determined by asking him how does he really feel about being a leader. Of course though–really–if you have to ask you already know the answer. Some men might say they want to lead, but not really because he knows if he admits to not wanting to lead that it is seen as not masculine and weak (just as its hard for women to admit they don’t really want to be career women). So to get around this they might say “dear, I want to lead, but you keep taking control from me”. This deflects his lack or fear of leadership back onto her. “If only you would______, then I would ______”.

“Therefore, when women ask, “How do I get my husband to take the wheel and be the leader?” I tell them, “By getting out of the driver’s seat!” In most cases, as long as a wife is trying to manipulate and control, her husband will usually ride along in the backseat for the sake of unity, and in an effort to keep her happy. But if a wife will trust her husband and follow him, even when she doesn’t necessarily agree with how he’s driving or where he’s taking her, he might just develop the courage or the desire to become the leader that she wants him to be.”

So, if he is just riding along, in fear of making her unhappy, then he is passive. He is not a leader. BUT WAIT this can all be fixed! If a wife willingly gives up her seat he all of a sudden might just develop the courage to be a driver. Keyword here is “might”. So, what if her relinquishing control does not make him into the leader of her dreams? What if he is simply passive by nature and has no desire to change? Well, what is this truly about — loving and supporting your man “as is” or being what “she wants him to be”? If its the former, then more needs to be said about how women can support and love a passive man, when he acutally asks her to make the decisions. It may repulse her at her core to have to be the leader, but its a nasty reality that traditionalists don’t often address. Submission might actualy mean being the leader, if that is what the husband desires. Submission is not changing him to what “she wants him to be”.

Trouble comes when women marry men thinking they will be leaders by virtue of having a penis and then are shocked later at his passivity. Desperate for an answer they turn to godly blogs that convince her she is always the one doing something wrong, that the man can’t simply have a passive nature and there is nothing wrong with this except someone has to lead. So, yes sometimes women really are that controlling or leading because he is passive.

In the end, if traditionalists had more flexibility in their sex roles then maybe honest conversations could happen. For example, if women will ask and men will be forthright before marriage that they don’t want to have the leading role, that they like her making all or most of the decisions, then fine–she can determine if that is something she can live with. In theory that seems reasonable, but in reality people do unreasonable things, they don’t have these discussions and if the man is passive he will even shy away from talking about it. Women will then go into a marriage with a strong sense that he isn’t a leader, but thinks it will be OK cause her charms will change him. Likewise, men go into marriage thinking she truly likes being a leader, “its nice to have someone like mom to make decisions for me”, but then are confused as hell when his wife gets bitchy and irritable over always having to take charge. But hey, if they could admit that for the sake of marital harmony sometimes it works out best if the woman is the leader, then that is OK. What is better a strong, happy relationship with traditionally reversed roles? Or a tense filled, possibly falling apart, marriage because we all aren’t fitting in our neatly defined boxes.

Long story short (need to clean this post up later) is that if indeed a man has a passive nature then that needs to be accepted rather than changed. I think sometimes Christians see passive, non-leading me as if they are gay men and need to be changed. God didn’t design you this way!  In itself passive men are not a problem, the problem comes in how women view them and accept them. This doesn’t mean women should be forced to find passive men attractive, but rather have an understanding that passive/submissive men do exist and if that is not attractive to her she shouldn’t expect that her charms will change him into the leader SHE wants him to be.

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41 thoughts on “Maybe he Really is Passive and that is OK

  1. Ugh, Amanda, all I can say is please don’t listen to that nonsense. What you wrote made complete sense and it didn’t sound to me (or to any of the rest of us here, I don’t think) like you were blaming your husband for all your marital woes. You have real, valid reasons to be In a painful place that feels full of confusion and like you were bait-and-switched. I most certainly do not view myself as innocent in my marital difficulties (my own struggles and sins–DAILY–are a huge battle for me DAILY) and I doubt you feel that way either. I have been praying for you and your husband and I hope that both you and I can find the way through these hard times!

    Liked by 2 people

  2. Nonya said:

    “But when women hold out for Mr.Sexytimes who would also make a good husband then they are accused of delaying marriage so that they can ride the carousel.”

    Riiight.

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  3. Mrs. H,

    That was very good.

    And that is a big problem with the 100% submission view–that we ought to be able to look into the future and figure out every single thought and plan our future husband will ever have. That’s a ridiculous expectation.

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  4. Mrs. H said,

    “Deti seems to think that if sexual attraction is there the whole rest of your marriage will fall into place and it will solve all the other issues, which is BS. I’m sure there are plenty of women who married her guy because he was hot and exciting and then when real life settles in such as kids, jobs, financial problems, home repairs, and in-law issues etc they find out that sexual attraction isn’t enough.”

    Exactly.

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  5. ….submission fixes everything……especially in regards to husbands getting enough sex. “I’ll get plenty of sex if she would always submit like she’s supposed to.”

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  6. But when women hold out for Mr.Sexytimes who would also make a good husband then they are accused of delaying marriage so that they can ride the carousel. They are feminists who have unrealistic expectations and it is their fault that so many men “aren’t getting the signal” to become good providers and are watching porn in their parents’ basements instead. Also not enough submission, because submission fixes everything.

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  7. This is a “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” argument – the idea that you should not have expectations of a spouse, except you should…

    you should marry for sexual attraction, but too bad you married for sex and not a good provider

    you should marry someone who has all the qualities of a good husband, but you should have married Mr Sexytimes

    Most of all, you SHOULD HAVE KNOWN…..YOU SHOULD HAVE KNOWN…YOU SHOULD HAVE KNOWN (because crystal ball, etc.)

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  8. You need to understand several things about thedeti–

    1. If you disagree with him, you’re wrong.
    2. If you’re a woman, you’re wrong.
    3. If you call him out on something he said, it’s because “you didn’t understand it/you cherry picked/you let your emotions get in the way.”
    4. If you provide context for the thing he said, he’ll change the topic.

    The best way to deal with thedeti is to let him throw his tantrums in peace. Call it a “silent agree and amplify.”

    Liked by 1 person

  9. Wow and this is why I don’t share my story, why I suck it up, suffer in silence and take my pain to God instead. Against my better judgment, I will respond to all this. deti says its my fault for making a bad choice but freely admits I had bad information (You made marriage decisions based on incomplete information and a mating/dating template that hasn’t worked since about 1975.). This is what I meant by bait and switched. Like going to buy any sort of products, sucked in by the good advertising, only to find out later it doesn’t live up to its claims). I imagine men feel the same bait and switch when they have an active sex life in th beginning of marriage and then she all of a sudden starts withholding.
    Yes, I made a choice based on faulty information that my family, friends, and society knew what was best for me, so I am so sorry I listened to the best counsel I had at the time. I did think sexual attraction was important, but I thought have the “family guy” was more important than sex, than those sinful lusty feelings Christians are often shamed for having.
    “You weren’t duped or tricked or hoodwinked or misled. You just weren’t fully informed.”
    Yup, wasn’t fully informed, so its my fault for not somehow knowing how to get the right information, for not knowing who to listen to and who not to listen to. I get it.
    So, I chose him for my own selfish ends. Wow, you have it so figured out. I chose him because we agreed on a lot of stuff, both said wanted 3 kids, we both wanted to homeschool and me to stay home, we both wanted to be a church going family and plenty of other reasons that were mutually beneficial and shared interests. Now, he has gone back on that, which is fine and I am finding ways to adapt.

    “It’s also clear that (WADR) Amanda selected him for her own selfish, self centered purposes (marriage, making kids, him supporting her, her quitting her job) with absolutely no regard for what the marriage would mean for him nor what she would be giving him nor what he wanted.”

    I’ll say it again. We discussed and jointly decided we BOTH wanted kids, he wanted to provide and I did not force him to provide or pick him for his money. He liked traditional roles and wanted me home and him at work, but his views on a lot of that have changed. And say even if it was selfish purpose, what, do men not choose women for the same reasons. How selfish of him to marry and expect he will meet his sexual needs. How selfish of him to expect her to cook. He just married her so he could have a maid.

    “She was getting married not for THEM, but for HER. She wasn’t looking for a husband; she had a preconceived “role” of “husband” to fill, and was looking for the best “job applicant” to fill that role for HER purposes, not for THEIR purposes. It was most important not that she be sexually attracted to the man; but that he check off the most boxes: “family man”, “leader”, “politically conservative”, “passive”, “good father”.”

    Yes, a preconceived role of husband based on My Christian family and traditional background. The horror that a Christian woman expects a man to be conservative, want kids, a provider, etc. How silly of me for wanting those things. Those are just the roles I was suppose to look for based on my family background and what I now know as misinformation. Sorry, Christians weren’t telling me forget if he is a provider or conservative, rather make sure he wants to bang the hell out of you. I am astounded how you continue to blame me and paint me as selfish when you have admitted I had bad information.

    “Amanda’s reference to their current sex life is about HER, not THEM. Her reference to their current sex life is an afterthought, really. She tells us about how sexually attractive she is, even giving us a physical description of herself. At no point do we have her give us a physical description of him. All we hear about him is that apparently, he doesn’t like sex all that much. She feels rejected; but at no point is it considered that maybe HE feels rejected.”

    I gave a descritpion of what I look like because usually if a man isn’t giving a woman sex its always assumed its because she is FAT. I go out of my way to be attractive for him. I wanted to set the record clear, that, that cant be the reason for his rejection. You can’t win.

    I know the real reason he rejects me now– I am a selfish bitch who married for selfish reasons.

    “Nice try, but I don’t buy it. It’s clear Amanda selected her husband for “safety” and not for sexual compatibility or attraction, thinking he would do all these expected things for her and with no consideration for what he might want, need or desire.”

    Um, yeah cause us Christians girls are told to marry for safety not for sexual reasons. Christian women aren’t suppose to work, so we look for safety and security. If it was more accepted that Christian women don’t have to always be SAHMS maybe we will make marriage decisions based on sexual attraction. Again, so sorry for not having this perfectly figured out at age 24. So, sorry for listening to the advice of my parents, sisters, church.

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  10. Deti seems to think that if sexual attraction is there the whole rest of your marriage will fall into place and it will solve all the other issues, which is BS. I’m sure there are plenty of women who married her guy because he was hot and exciting and then when real life settles in such as kids, jobs, financial problems, home repairs, and in-law issues etc they find out that sexual attraction isn’t enough.

    Deti said-

    ” Amanda’s error was in examining her husband before marriage and making false assumptions about him.”

    “…..whom they expect to be good little automatons: working, making money, leading the family (where she expects it to go), never wanting or needing anything for themselves, and living to serve their wives and children.”

    More BS. She was largely misled. She made it clear that he said he wanted the same things she wanted. Based on what she said it seems to me that he didn’t really know what he wanted deep down. He went along with the things they talked about because he probably never really thought too deeply about the commitment and sacrifice involved. Passive people go with the path of least resistance and telling her what she wanted to hear to get to the altar was the easy way to get there rather than going through the hashing out that maybe he didn’t really want many kids or to be the bread winner after all. He may have been so passive that once he found someone who he liked well enough it was just easier to walk down the aisle than to keep looking for someone else.

    Deti describes Amanda’s vision for marriage as all about what she wanted. Don’t we all look for what we want before we are married? (or at least we’re supposed to) There is nothing wrong with a man or a woman having expectations for marriage as long as they talk about that beforehand and find out if it’s what the other person wants too. By all accounts, she and her husband did talk about these things. Deti is disingenuous when he implies that it was all about what she wanted and that she didn’t give a thought to what he wanted or needed. He led her to believe that he wanted the same things or at the very least didn’t object when she made clear her vision for marriage and family.

    Amanda said- (the part Deti chose to ignore)

    “Instead all the pre-marriage talk of having 3 kids, homeschooling,me staying home, church, has all gone out the window.”

    “He has admitted he doesn’t want to lead, its just not for him. We have one child and he is done, says being a dad is “too much work” and thought kids would be easy. ”

    “After staying at home for a year, he got too resentful of me being home and asked that I work again. He doesn’t care about well prepared meals or a super clean house or me being a primary care giver–the money I can bring in is more important.”

    ” I thought I was doing everything right. Married young to the nice, wholesome “christian” guy, who told me all the the right things,”

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  11. TPC:

    I didn’t ignore what Amanda said about her husband. I relied on her description of him to write the comment. Her description of her husband is spot on for millions of so-called “nice guys”.

    Amanda’s description of her marriage is pretty much exactly what happens when women forego or downplay sexual attraction in favor of marrying “safe” “nice guys” whom they expect to be good little automatons: working, making money, leading the family (where she expects it to go), never wanting or needing anything for themselves, and living to serve their wives and children. It’s also what I expect to happen when women marry men they’re just not all that sexually attracted to. What little attraction is there quickly dwindles as his “nice guy” behaviors and insecurities emerge. His behavior after marriage was also pretty much what I would expect. I’ve seen and talked to many of these men in person and in comboxes all over the place.

    TPC, the condition of Amanda’s marriage isn’t entirely the fault of Amanda’s husband. Many folks like to make it sound as if marital problems are 100% the fault of the man. It just isn’t so, and your insistence that it is so doesn’t make it so. Amanda bears her fault, just as anyone else does. Marriage problems are almost never the fault of just one of the participants. Amanda’s error was in examining her husband before marriage and making false assumptions about him.

    I didn’t say anything false either. We have a difference of opinion is all. You’re entitled to your opinions. I’m entitled to mine. If Stone wants, as you want, a “safe space” echo chamber where contrary opinions aren’t welcome and your opinions are not challenged in the crucible of free and open debate, that’s fine. Stone him/her/itself said there’s no point to any of this discussion.

    That’s fine. deti out.

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  12. This is your house and your rules, Stone, but I would suggest banning deti for his responses to Amanda, or at least deleting them. That was someone who randomly commented out of a place of what appears from even just one comment to be very real suffering and despair and he ignored all the details of the husband’s essentially manospherian behavior to push his stupid and mostly false talking points while insulting the poor woman.

    I don’t talk a ton about my marriage dynamic online, but I am joyfully married, and to Amanda, I would simply say you have my sympathy. I hope you can offer up your sorrows to God and find some respite and I also hope you can have some comfort in the relationship with your child and with the other people in your life you love. It’s very much not the same, but I hope it can be some small comfort for you.

    Anyway, I don’t mean to be pushy or rude, but those are my views on that little comment stream.

    Liked by 1 person

  13. Another major reason women marry “nice guys” is because, very often, the so-called “nice guys” are the only guys left when many of these women finally decide to get married, or are the only men willing to offer commitment.

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  14. First of all, I didn’t condemn Amanda. Second, I didn’t give her any advice. I rendered my opinion. I disagree that there’s no point to this. The point to all this is that maybe we can learn something from others’ issues and problems. What you call “manosphere talking points” is actually application of what we know of human nature to specific fact situations.

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  15. Its one comment. You said you were sorry for her, but boy did you let her have it with standard manosphere talking points. It really doesn’t matter if Amanda responds or shares new information as she has already been condemned (from one comment). Maybe she has positive things to say, but in light of the post topic on being passive, she zeroed in on that.
    There is no point to all this. I am not here to give advice (opinions yes) and I am against online advice giving ministries for this reason. You never know the full story. Its words on a screen, not in the flesh as you would get in real life where you can get to know both parties. I’m not so sure about the men’s stories online either. We never do hear from the wives.

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  16. I would also add that people have drawn conclusions about me from one or two combox comments. That’s done all the time on sites where the entire purpose of the site is to talk about and exchange ideas about interpersonal and intersexual relationships. People describe their issues, problems, and lives, and solicit each others’ thoughts and opinions about them. By criticizing my drawing conclusions about others from their comments, you’re undermining the entire purpose of this exercise.

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  17. You deride conclusions drawn from comments in comboxes; when clearly we’re intended to draw conclusions from them. We’re intended to read the words written to determine the state of a marriage or relationship.

    If we’re not to draw conclusions and/or render opinions from what’s written, then there’s no point to this and no benefit to be derived, and we might as well close up all these blogs and just plod along as before.

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  18. LOL, yup its so crystal clear from ONE COMMENT their entire marital history. When we hear men tell similar stories of their wives, especially the wives who wont give sex, I don’t hear any consideration give to the wife’s side of the story. He feels rejected, but at no point is it considered the she feels rejected or lonely because he spends the vast majority of his time online arguing with stupid women, or fawning over women he wishes his wife could be (or for any other reason).

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  19. Nick, I understand that people can start out sexually attracted and then lose that attraction. But you’re basically saying that your marital problems are 100% HIS fault, because he lied, changed, etc. Have you considered your role in said marital issues? I’ve been studying these things a long time. I’ve been married 20 years, and my marriage has been to levels of Hell you can only imagine in nightmares. It’s almost never 100% the fault of one person in a marriage.

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  20. “Um, it sounds like she’s still plenty sexually attracted, and he isn’t.:

    Your defense of Amanda is valiant, but I don’t buy it. Amanda does not speak of her husband as a sexually attractive man. In fact — she speaks of him just the opposite.

    Note very carefully how Amanda speaks of him. She started out by saying her “niceguy” husband “trapped” her. She then assiduously drew a contrast between the “very attractive” man she rejected in favor of her “niceguy” (i.e. hopelessly unattractive) husband. She does not describe him in attractive terms. She calls him “passive”, “politically conservative”, “good father”, “family man”, “traditional values” — all of which are buzzwords for “niceguy”, safe, boring, predictable and unexciting. And note that this is clearly how Amanda felt about him from the very start of their relationship — he was “nice”. Not “attractive” or “good looking” or “masculine” or “strong” or “very attractive”. Nope. Just “nice” and “passive”.

    This is not how women who are sexually attracted to their men speak of them. Sexually attracted women speak of their men as Elspeth speaks of her husband: “Strong”, “Masculine”, “high value”, “high integrity”, “a lot less nice”. At absolutely NO POINT does Amanda speak of her husband in such gushing terms.

    It’s also clear that (WADR) Amanda selected him for her own selfish, self centered purposes (marriage, making kids, him supporting her, her quitting her job) with absolutely no regard for what the marriage would mean for him nor what she would be giving him nor what he wanted. She was getting married not for THEM, but for HER. She wasn’t looking for a husband; she had a preconceived “role” of “husband” to fill, and was looking for the best “job applicant” to fill that role for HER purposes, not for THEIR purposes. It was most important not that she be sexually attracted to the man; but that he check off the most boxes: “family man”, “leader”, “politically conservative”, “passive”, “good father”.

    Amanda’s reference to their current sex life is about HER, not THEM. Her reference to their current sex life is an afterthought, really. She tells us about how sexually attractive she is, even giving us a physical description of herself. At no point do we have her give us a physical description of him. All we hear about him is that apparently, he doesn’t like sex all that much. She feels rejected; but at no point is it considered that maybe HE feels rejected.

    Nice try, but I don’t buy it. It’s clear Amanda selected her husband for “safety” and not for sexual compatibility or attraction, thinking he would do all these expected things for her and with no consideration for what he might want, need or desire.

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  21. Oh and also wouldn’t get away with it because he would literally have 15 friends going, “What?” Though he is not very social or close to those friends still, he has consistent church attendance and involvement that people would notice. I am sorry for the situation you are in, Amanda. It sounds quite miserable. Turn to God, He alone can give you the strength, patience, and love you need to get through this. Trust me when I say I’m preaching this to myself. I didn’t marry the man I did because I was “listening to what traditional/conservative people told me to do,” but rather because, through prayer and seeking godly counsel, and reading the Word, I believed in my heart the best thing to do was to do everything in my power to ensure that when I married we were not unequally yoked and were both sincere believers, with every indication that we would pursue God’s will for our marriage and our family. I hope that someday that will happen but if it doesn’t I will try for second-best.

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  22. Ha ha here we go again with the “you weren’t sexually attracted.” Um, it sounds like she’s still plenty sexually attracted, and he isn’t. He definitely sounds depressed or like there is something he is hiding. My husband wouldn’t, however, be able to get away with saying, “I just said I was a Christian,” because I did everything I knew how to do to determine that said faith was real and active. I honestly have had to let go of regrets I have for missing what I think were the subtlest of subtle hints that maybe there was something amiss.

    Though I don’t need to go down this route again…as I’ve said before, I was plenty sexually attracted to the man I married, and things have changed. It’s as simple as that. I am and was grown up enough to know if I was or wasn’t sexually attracted to the passive man I married. I definitely know what it is to burn with desire, which is what I experienced with my husband. Just as a man can be sexually attracted to his wife before marriage and then lose attraction to her when she puts on the pounds post-marriage (because men are primarily visual), women (whose sexual attraction points have been discussed at length elsewhere–LAMPS) can lose sexual attraction to their husbands for various reasons. It goes both ways.

    Elspeth, thank you for your prayers. I sincerely appreciate it.

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  23. “I actually did the reverse of what Amanda’s comment indicated. Turned away a really nice and sweet guy for someone a lot less “nice” but with strong masculine qualities and high integrity”

    Which, as you and I have discussed before on numerous occasions, is the most eloquent proof I’ve yet seen of what the manosphere has been saying. Your example is near-conclusive proof that sexual attraction is important; that nice guys finish last; and that strong masculinity and sexually attractive wins over “nice” every time.

    One simply could not ask for a better example of what the manosphere asserts, and what it tells men to be in order to attract wives.

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  24. Married young to the nice, wholesome “christian” guy, who told me all the the right things, but now I just feel bait and switched.”

    With due respect (and believe me, I know whereof I speak), you weren’t bait and switched. You were presented with a choice between a man you were attracted to (risky) and a so-called “nice guy” you weren’t attracted to (safe). And you made the “safe” choice. I know that because you said this:

    “I rejected a man who I was very attracted to for my “nice guy” husband thinking his passivity would make him a better family man. Boy, was I wrong. I also assumed conservative politically means traditional values and in turn a leader for the family. Wrong again.”

    You looked at your “nice guy” and made unfounded assumptions: He was passive and docile and milquetoasty, and you thought that would make him a good father and husband. You also looked at his politics and translated that as “traditional” and “family leader”.

    You weren’t duped or tricked or hoodwinked or misled. You just weren’t fully informed. You made marriage decisions based on incomplete information and a mating/dating template that hasn’t worked since about 1975.

    You also assumed that sexual attraction wasn’t important. Your case is evidence that confirms for me what I’ve been saying for years now — the number one mistake women make when they marry is presuming that sex isn’t important, that sexual attraction isn’t important, and that sex will just “work itself out”. It causes misery all around.

    Sexual attraction has got to be there from the get go, or it’s never going to be there. Sexual attraction cannot be negotiated. A woman cannot talk or reason herself into being sexually attracted to a particular man. And a man cannot talk, reason, persuade or cajole a woman into being sexually attracted to him. It’s either there or it isn’t there. It cannot be created out of whole cloth. Building a life, having kids, accumulating wealth, having a church life, not even liking or loving the man as a really good friend — none of these things create sexual attraction.

    I really am sorry for you, but let’s be honest — you made a choice to reject the attractive man, and you chose the “safe” man because you thought sexual attraction just wasn’t important. You chose him for your own ends (marriage, he would be a good husband and father) and not because he was actually a good match for you or you for him.

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  25. I disagree that women marry men they’re “not sure about” because they “fall for “nice guy” arguments”. “Nice guys” aren’t out there actually winning arguments with women, persuading and cajoling women into marriage. You make it sound as if these men are out there talking women into marrying them because “they’re so nice”. That’s not how it works.

    What happens is that either (1) she’s rejected other guys or bad boys rejected her, or she can’t get commitment from the attractive men she likes, so the only men left are “nice guys”; or (2) family pressures her into marrying a so-called “nice guy” because most of the other men won’t marry her, because she won’t have sex before marriage. The first is far more common than the second; the second happens with religious girls.

    “So, they create all these scare tactics, like “hitting the wall” to scare women into marrying the first nice guy she sees, attracted or not.”

    “The Wall” is an observed phenomenon, not a “scare tactic”. You’re incorrect if you believe women are actually apprehensive about a social phenomenon that a few men talk about on the internet and literally nowhere else. Most women are not “scared” into marrying the “first nice guy she sees”. They get married to these nice guys because they think sexual attraction isn’t important, they want to get married so they can start their lives, and because they and everyone else around them thinks “it’s time” to marry. It has nothing to do with fright over a very real social phenomenon that is practically verboten.

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  26. “I can’t imagine that one would get good results from “submitting harder” to a depressed guy.”

    That’s a good point. Of course though, if he is depressed that is her fault. Depressed because she isn’t submitting enough. I have no doubts they would blame a man’s drinking problem on the wife too—he drinks cause she nags too much. They already blame women whose husband looks at porn. Its supposedly the wife’s fault for not being seductive enough, not wearing lingerie, and not looking like the porn stars.

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  27. Maea said:

    “I think in your case, the real problem is he’s fallen from faith. Nothing else is going to matter unless this changes.”

    There also may be some depression in the mix.

    I can’t imagine that one would get good results from “submitting harder” to a depressed guy.

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  28. The idea of “submitting harder” is absolutely ludicrous. Submission isn’t something on a gradient where you have to reach Level 5 to know you’re doing it right. My gosh, it amazes me to know people IRL can be just as bad as the ‘spherians.

    I think in your case, the real problem is he’s fallen from faith. Nothing else is going to matter unless this changes.

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  29. Nicoustical,

    I wouldn’t dare tell you to pray but I said a prayer for you. My heart ached as I read your story because I can see exactly how you ended up where you are. We do need the advice and wisdom of those in our family and church but the ideal being presented of what is “godly” manhood is so warped now.

    I can tell you for an absolute fact that your testimony is ripe with ‘spherian cliches so if it happens be ready to steel yourself against it. You have enough to deal with.

    I actually did the reverse of what Amanda’s comment indicated. Turned away a really nice and sweet guy for someone a lot less “nice” but with strong masculine qualities and high integrity. There was some temporary strain and stress but it wasn’t long before my choice was shown to be the best I could have made.

    If there is a lesson here I think it’s here for any single women who have yet to marry. Don’t dismiss red flags and talk to your family and friends frankly and honestly about your concerns. They often won’t be able to see past the religious veneer or their own relief that you’re getting married- finally- unless you point things out to them.

    Liked by 1 person

  30. Amanda said:

    “I should have followed my instincts rather than what traditional or conservative people told me what was right.”

    My feeling on instincts is that they are very valuable when they are saying “NO,” but less reliable when they are saying “YES.”

    If that makes any sense?

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  31. I think I can relate. My husband is very passive even passive aggressive. I too fell for the trap of the nice guy. I rejected a man who I was very attracted to for my “nice guy” husband thinking his passivity would make him a better family man. Boy, was I wrong. I also assumed conservative politically means traditional values and in turn a leader for the family. Wrong again.
    Instead all the pre-marriage talk of having 3 kids, homeschooling,me staying home, church, has all gone out the window.
    He has admitted he doesn’t want to lead, its just not for him. We have one child and he is done, says being a dad is “too much work” and thought kids would be easy. He even said I saw so many others with kids and thought it would be easy. Why do people do this if its not easy? HE fails to see the larger picture. So I am largely heartbroken that there will be no more kids. Family has suggested that I just trick him into another one, but that hardly seems submissive.
    Church has fallen to the wayside as he is not a Christian anymore and says he doesn’t think he ever was, he just said that he was cause he thought it was what I wanted to hear.
    After staying at home for a year, he got too resentful of me being home and asked that I work again. He doesn’t care about well prepared meals or a super clean house or me being a primary care giver–the money I can bring in is more important.

    We have sex once every other month if I am lucky and it only last 5 mins. I have a huge sex drive and feel so incredibly rejected. I have suspicions he might even be a closet gay based on how repulsed he seems by the female body. Yet, I am tall and slender, keep in good health and I consider myself preety.
    He just likes to hide out in his office and be left alone. He has no male friends and is quite anti-social. I feel like he just puts up with me and our child and its very rare I get affection from him. How I crave just a for loving hug and its not there.
    He hates his job but wont do anything to improve himself. I said well isn’t it nice though that at least at the end of the day you can come home to your family—and he said nothing. Most responses from him are pure silence.
    I’ve been by what I think are some of these manosphere blogs you mention and could tell pretty quickly stories about husbands such as mine would not be believed. Any woman who says her husband won’t lead is then passed the blame as its always the woman’s fault. I see how feminism got started if a woman has a legitimate issue with her husband and she is made to feel its all her fault. No wonder feminism looked appealing, where women could be heard and understood. Feminists are seeming much more like a caring group of people. Christians just brush me off and tell me to just submit harder or like Stone said just suck it up. But yet those who say that are happily married and haven’t had these problems so of course they can’t relate.

    Overall, I thought I was doing everything right. Married young to the nice, wholesome “christian” guy, who told me all the the right things, but now I just feel bait and switched. I should have followed my instincts rather than what traditional or conservative people told me what was right.

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  32. This is exactly why I gave up on the quickly-accepted model of what a Christian marriage should look like. Honestly, I don’t care anymore because it’s already tough enough to be a Christian, and I don’t need to add hyphens to make it more difficult.

    For nicoustical, all I can say is I don’t think this is a permanent place in life for you. There was a time where I honestly though the same things in my own marriage, and things will change in due course. Not always how we want, of course…but I hope you’re able to find a semblance of peace in this hard time.

    Liked by 1 person

  33. Thank you for sharing.

    “He’s such a NICE GUY!” The *nicest.* What Christian girl has the right to really reject the nicest guy, huh?

    Yes, that is so key to the point I was making. Women marry men they really aren’t sure about because they fall for the “nice guy” arguments. Nice guys is the PC way to say passive guys.

    The manosphere gets it right that women don’t want to marry “nice guys”, but this pisses them off because in their mind they are the nice guys that just can’t get a date. So, they create all these scare tactics, like “hitting the wall” to scare women into marrying the first nice guy she sees, attracted or not.

    But then I thought, “Maybe I’m just trying to be a drama-queen doing this and pushing away this good man God has for me.”

    That is a good point too.

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  34. Side-note: I did HARD vetting, and really, truly believed some things:
    1) I thought, “Perhaps I’ve been being arrogant or a know-it-all, thinking *I* know what a Christian strong leader man awlays looks and behaves like. Perhaps he is the quiet but string leader type, and who am I to define what he should do or not do?” I sincerely wanted to be humble in my approach to this man to whom I found myself attracted but who was VERY different from what I had pictured myself marrying.
    2) I relied too much in his spotless, tidy reputation;
    3) people lie. And I believed lies, sadly.

    I mean, one night before we were married–about 2 minths prior to the wedding–I almost gave him back my rngagement ribg and called off the wedding. Because I could foresee that I would hurt him ( I did not hide my struggles with sin from him) and I just DID NOT want to do that to him. I was experiencing some of my tendency to be disrespectful in the face if a person who shrinks from responsibility. But then I thought, “Maybe I’m just trying to be a drama-queen doing this and pushing away this good man God has for me.”

    In all sincerity–these are the thought processes that helped me dismiss red flags. That and everyone else in our community being like, “He’s such a NICE GUY!” The *nicest.* What Christian girl has the right to really reject the nicest guy, huh?
    Which is why manospherians being like, “Just date us nice guys and things will be do great” always irked me to no end.

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  35. This. Is my WHOLE LIFE and world.

    And no, I didn’t think I would change him once we got married, but I MAJORLY misunderstood the true level of passivity.

    And after nearly 9 years of marriage, I can tell you that you’re right: “pray about it” does sound heartless and trite.

    He did say he wanted to lead. I believed that and a lot of other wishful thinking.

    At this point, in order to just STOP with the a) blaming myself for his not taking the driver’s seat when I get out and b) being an overbearing crazy freak at times cause I am, REALLY AM not built for being the leader (and have previous relationship experience enought to know that I am VERY capable of HAPPILY following a leader), I am going to have to accept (and so is he) a few very hard to accept things.
    1) No sexual attraction.
    2) Going around in circles on major issues in our lives.
    3) NEVER making significant, needed changes to any aspect of life or marriage unless they are put forward AND acted upon by me, myself, and I.
    4) struggling with temptation in the presence of other non-passive, God-fearing men, which I hate.
    5) Feeling more lonely than I ever imagined possible. I knew loneliness would happen, regardless of marital status, but wow.
    6) worry/concern about what our children grow up seeing and how to show my son how to be a leader. I don’t believe that is a mama’s job and a boy needs good male role models who don’t shrink in fear from responsibility, yet I hate the idea of actively seeking out role models for him besides his father.

    I still retain the hope that prayer can change things, but I am at this very place in life and it truly sucks.

    Like

  36. I agree most women are NOT built for it over the long haul, but what do you propose then if women aren’t built for it but at the same time need to suck it up? What I am suggesting is that women really need to figure out if he is passive or not at the get-go, but really that isn’t going to happen. Women think they can change a man or think they can handle taking charge because the relationship is new, but 10 years down the road when you are still taking charge–I imagine then it really starts to wear on you. Stuff you don’t see at the forefront when the puppy love feelings mask the reality of each person’s nature. Its clearly a problem as so many women are online searching on how they can get their man to lead. Many are turned off that their man is not the leader they thought he could be or thought they could change him into. Yet the typical answer to these women is its YOU, there is something wrong with YOU…YOU are too controlling, when in reality the fact is that some men can just be passive and it is a real fact to be dealt with. I’ve been around enough couples where the husband sends a serious passive, feminine vibe and icks me out even being around them, let alone what their wife must be feeling.

    I guess the traditional suck it up and pray is the best these women will hear. I don’t have a better answer, but hate giving that sort of answer as it sounds trite and heartless. Other women get their masculine, dominant man–but oh well too bad too sad for you, you should have picked better.

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  37. I *liked* this because I agree that if a husband’s passivity is just his nature, then yeah. Wifey has to suck it up and get comfy in the driver’s seat. I agree with you on that score.

    But Stone, it really is NOT okay because from what I have witnessed (from the outside looking in thank God) is that most women are just not built for that kind driving over the long haul. It’s just too far for too long and it rarely ends well.

    Liked by 1 person

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