Angry Bird · Feminist Bird · Traditionalist Bird

Men Want Women to Initiate Dating for a more Easier, Safer, and Enjoyable Experience

There has been a lot of discussion on this blog regarding certain men who are insisting that women are basically the ones who need to be the first to initiate interest in a man. Myself and others have agreed that this flies in the face of tradition and if you want a traditional woman, she hasn’t been groomed to take initiative and be assertive, especially so in the dating arena.   The women certain men claim they want are the ones with a “meek and quiet spirit”. Not the ballsy girl who goes up and asks men out on dates.  There is a big gap between what they want in theory and what they want in practice. A woman being the first to initiate interest spearheads the relationship with her as the leader. It sets a tone and precedence.

With that said, this match.com survey is interesting:

Among single men ages 18 to 70+, the national survey released last December found 95 percent are in favor of a woman initiating the first kiss and also asking for a guy’s phone number. But only 29 percent of women actually initiate the first kiss and 13 percent of women ask for a man’s number.

Helen Fisher, a biological anthropologist and chief scientific adviser for Match who worked on the study and analyzed the findings, said the facts are part of a larger trend where women are “piling into the job market, gaining economically, and gaining sexually and socially.”
“Men say that feminism has really made dating easier, safer and more enjoyable for them,” Fisher said.

As it turns out the men are right. Clearly, men want women to be the initiators; however, before they get too giddy about being right they do need to give their thanks to feminism for taking the dating pressure off men. Maybe feminism has or certainly will help in men experiencing less “nuclear rejection”. When you don’t take risks and rely on the woman to do all the work it certainly does making dating “easier, safer and more enjoyable”.   The larger message is the majority of men are no more comfortable in their cookie-cutter traditional, leadership roles than women are comfortable in being submissive housewives.

The survey also found that the No. 1 turn-on for single men was female entrepreneurs.

“I began to think why is it? What is an entrepreneur? They’re daring, they’re creative, they’re conscientious. They’re going to have some time off because they’re their own boss. It makes sense,” Fisher said.

You mean being a submissive,housewife isn’t the No. 1 turn on?  Whoda thunk it. Beneath all the traditional, sentimental talk about wanting a submissive woman in theory, what they want in practice is a daring entrepreneur. They want a leader because it makes dating and a future marriage easier, safer, and more enjoyable for them.

The lesson here for single young women is unless you plan to find a man in your tight knit church community, you are going to have loosen up that “meek and quiet” unassertive, unassuming demeanor you were raised with and become more like an entrepreneur. Be daring! The lesson for traditional moms with daughters who are starting to date is just as troubling.

Advertisements

15 thoughts on “Men Want Women to Initiate Dating for a more Easier, Safer, and Enjoyable Experience

  1. Stone “I don’t see where the line is drawn though between being kind because that is the human thing to do and being kind out of romantic love. I am kind when I open the door for a stranger, does that mean I love them?”

    The act of kindness is the love. It the same love whether it has good feelings attached or not. When you perform an act of kindness for a stranger, you have loved them even if you didn’t feel love for them. When a wife leaves because she lost that loving feeling, she has chosen not to love. When she stays despite the lack of feeling, she has chosen to love and because feelings are fickle things, she may find that those feelings eventually return…..and when they go away again, she’ll weather the storm easier by her experience of choosing to love the first time around. This isn’t just women. Men are susceptible to feelings too. When he’s not feeling respected or wanted sexually, he may abandon the marriage. He chooses not to love.

    Like

  2. “. What does it look like to love first before emotion? Lori mentions you treat him with respect, patience, kindness. All very well and good, but we all treat a lot of people that way. Its called just being a nice person.”

    Love can be accompanied by warm and fuzzy feelings but it doesn’t have to be in order for it to be love. Most of the time, if your relationship is good you will carry out loving acts accompanied by good emotions. If you choose to do good, even when you don’t feel like it. That’s love too. It just had a little (or a lot) more sacrifice attached to it to carry it out. If you hold a door for a stranger, that’s a loving act even if you don’t particularly have any personal or warm feelings for them. Your lack of feelings didn’t make the act any less loving.

    In the beginning, strong romantic feelings can spur the couple to want to spend time together and get to know one another. In getting to know the other person, you will grow to be willing (love is an act of the will), to begin sacrificing for them. At first, you are willing to make sacrifices because you know they will be pleased. Untimately, you will sacrifice on their behalf because it what is right and good morally even if it lacks sentimental or romantic feelings. Marriage can still have romantic feelings that roller-coaster up and down throughout. It’s the being willing to stick with it on the downs that is the proof of love, rather than the feelings themselves.

    Like

  3. Two-Cent Woman,

    Good points. Why would the betas (if there are such critters) expect to be approached, anyway?

    “For a guy who might be attracted to an aggressive woman, the bait and switch would be a big disappointment.”

    And a lot of them would be expecting the female approach to lead to casual sex, and would be very, very disappointed about it and might feel they’d been led on.

    In fact, avoiding that disappointment (which might come in the form of scary entitlement) would be an excellent reason for women to avoid approaching. I’ve even seen very secular/feminist women online say that that’s why they do not want to approach–because it creates expectations that they do not want to deal with.

    I’m not saying that the female approach should be ruled out entirely, but it’s not a good place for sweet naive sheltered young women to start.

    “I don’t think most men are looking for a 100% submissive wife to control. They’re too damn tired from working all day. To me submissive = a cooperative spirit or outlook”

    Right.

    “They are able to gather male followers by commenting on and visiting red pill male sites which causes traffic back to their own. If they wanted to create a community for women, they would go to female sites (other than other red pill women) and comment and visit there.”

    Ooooooh!

    You’re right.

    Like

  4. AmyP ” So if you want assertive now–brace yourself for assertive later.”

    Very true.

    “He was attracted to the aggressive and assertive woman–does he even want the 100% submissive wife?”

    To be fair, I think the point deti (is there really anyone else saying this but him? I don’t travel widely around the ‘sphere) is making is that if the submissive types want a guy, they will have to make it very obvious by making the initial approach because relationships/marriage are such a risk now to men that they aren’t willing to put forth much effort to take the chance. She will have to be aggressive in approaching and showing attraction when she asks him out or for his number but then she will be able to demonstrate submissivness once they actually meet for a date. So while this strategy might work for the average Joe mano-type that wants more than just sex but is gun-shy on marriage, the bait and switch will be a nice surprise. For a guy who might be attracted to an aggressive woman, the bait and switch would be a big disappointment. Also, none of this helps the beta guy (who would be the more marriage-minded type) because while they are waiting like wall flowers to be approached because they’re afraid of the risks involved in marriage, the alphas are still doing the approaching up front and distracting attention from them anyway.

    Another point on the 100% submissive woman is that rigid, legalistic types see the male/female dynamic as an authoritative heirarchy in which the woman may share her opinion but then step aside and obey his decision without question. I think in the average marriage, most guys just want a wife who is loving and cooperative rather than competitive. When she’s kind and thoughtful of his needs, respectful of his opinions and isn’t a nag, then he is more likely than not to let her “rule the domestic kingdom” but not rule him, as she sees fit. (as long as she’s competent in general). I don’t think most men are looking for a 100% submissive wife to control. They’re too damn tired from working all day. To me submissive = a cooperative spirit or outlook

    “This is probably where somebody mentions various submissive-but-hot submission bloggers and Red Pill Women. I think I would point out that a lot of those women are (to the female eye) clearly assertive.”

    Exactly. Red Pill women tend to use their “submissiveness” and their bossiness towards other women to “be submissive” as a way to manipulate male attention towards themselves. They are able to gather male followers by commenting on and visiting red pill male sites which causes traffic back to their own. If they wanted to create a community for women, they would go to female sites (other than other red pill women) and comment and visit there.

    Like

  5. No, I think its red pill. Because they don’t like the women who follow her emotions when she falls out of love and moves on to the next guy. You are suppose to choose to love him even if you don’t feel like it. You choose to be kind then from there I guess some sort of romantic feeling grows again.
    I can picture choosing to be unkind or kind, but love is more abstract. One can argue that in choosing to be kind you are choosing to love. I don’t see where the line is drawn though between being kind because that is the human thing to do and being kind out of romantic love. I am kind when I open the door for a stranger, does that mean I love them?

    Like

  6. Lori said:

    “Love is not a random force and it is not sensual as our culture makes it out to be. Love is active with the matter of the will (making the decision to love someone), accompanied by the emotions (not allowing emotions to dictate but the will then the emotions follow), and these lead to action on the part of its object.”

    I know LA has a lot of Red Pill admirers, but that’s a very un-Red Pill sentiment.

    Like

  7. On the topic of dating this relates…
    Lori says
    “Love is not a random force and it is not sensual as our culture makes it out to be. Love is active with the matter of the will (making the decision to love someone), accompanied by the emotions (not allowing emotions to dictate but the will then the emotions follow), and these lead to action on the part of its object.”

    I have a hard time picturing love without emotion. To me it seems cart before the horse. What does it look like to love first before emotion? Lori mentions you treat him with respect, patience, kindness. All very well and good, but we all treat a lot of people that way. Its called just being a nice person.
    It seems really dating and courtship should just be scrapped altogether and we rather just have arranged marriages and chose to love whoever we are arranged with.

    Like

  8. “Do men really want an easier, safer and more enjoyable experience or is that just what they think they want because it seems to be the more reasonable choice given the current environment we find ourselves in today? Did they anwer according to what they really felt or according to what they were taught they should want by feminism’s standards?”

    It could be that is what they wish would happen. 95% of men have a fantasy and make the assumption because of our feminism induced modern era, it should be that way, but given only 30% or so of the women are actually initiating it perhaps shows that despite all of feminism’s efforts, deep down women crave the traditional, crave the men taking the lead. Or they just want it both ways like the men do. They want all the assertiveness that comes with a career, but in dating want to be more reserved and even anti-feminist.

    Liked by 1 person

  9. “So if you want assertive now–brace yourself for assertive later.
    I can’t imagine that what they want is possible–a woman who is aggressive and assertive during early courtship, but then flips the switch to 100% submissive wife.”

    I had that point in my post but took it out.I agree it won’t be an easy switch. A woman who is comfortable in taking the lead with dating is naturally going to want to take charge after marriage.
    The red pill women I can think of who get the most orbiters also have some variation of a career. One owns a business. Perfect example, they want entrepreneurs!

    Like

  10. Two Cent Woman:

    “In the new masculine environment, it’s every man/woman for themselves with cut-throat competitivness in which the bold and strong win.”

    That’s a very interesting point–that courtship has been de-feminized.

    Like

  11. Very good points.

    As I was telling thedeti on a previous occasion, I was actually rather assertive during my courtship with my future husband (although he very quickly reciprocated)–but then again, I’ve been assertive nearly my whole marriage. Apparently, I even proposed to my future husband. (I thought I was just hinting hard, but my husband says it was a proposal.) So if you want assertive now–brace yourself for assertive later.

    I can’t imagine that what they want is possible–a woman who is aggressive and assertive during early courtship, but then flips the switch to 100% submissive wife. I suppose that would be possible with a fembot, but not at all likely with an actual woman. Also, come to think of it, isn’t that a huge bait-and-switch to the man? He was attracted to the aggressive and assertive woman–does he even want the 100% submissive wife?

    Also, being ultra-submissive probably isn’t conducive to having a zippy marital sex life (if we mean submissive in the obedient, passive sense rather than the 50 Shades of Grey sense). How often do we see men complaining about wives who are sexually compliant, but not assertive?

    (This is probably where somebody mentions various submissive-but-hot submission bloggers and Red Pill Women. I think I would point out that a lot of those women are (to the female eye) clearly assertive.)

    Like

  12. Do men really want an easier, safer and more enjoyable experience or is that just what they think they want because it seems to be the more reasonable choice given the current environment we find ourselves in today? Did they anwer according to what they really felt or according to what they were taught they should want by feminism’s standards?

    IMO, there is a male/female dynamic that can set the tone for the relationship according to how it naturally grows and develops. If women want men to lead or take the initiative, then it will do no good for her to make the first move to kiss or ask for his number. I think men, by their nature, like to feel that they are the ones controlling things and have conquered or mastered each step along the way. It gives them confidence in the relationship when she responds positively to him. Her confidence comes from him initiating. However, this doesn’t by any means mean that women are passive in this male/female dance. Women have always had a lot of control by implicitly influencing things so that things will go how she hopes they will. If a woman wants a guy to kiss her, she digs into her bag of feminine wiles and uses body language such as sustiained eye contact, turning to face him more directly, smiling, friendliness, small touches to his arms or hands while they are talking etc. Her behavior emboldens him knowing that it’s very likely if he initiates, it would be well recevied. If she wants him to ask for her number, provided he’s not a complete stranger (I don’t recommend this kind of meeting up anyway), she will find ways to get it through the grapevine of her friends/relatives to his, and eventually to him that she’s interested. She won’t specifically give her number or ask for his. All she has to do is inquire about him and tell her girlfriends or mutual friends etc. He’ll eventually hear about it. When word gets back to him that she’s been asking about him, it gets to be his idea whether to initiate or not.

    Unfortunately, despite opinion to the contrary, we live in a masculinized environment in which these subtle social signals back and forth, which helped him avoid “nucular rejection” and her to have influence without being too forward or slutty, is gone The older ways of doing things WAS the feminized environment. Femininity likes to make people comfortable and nurtures them to bring out their best. The old feminine social environment did this by giving social norms and rules on the surface but had acceptable ways of making the keeping of those rules easier on everybody through subtle influence under the surface. In the new masculine environment, it’s every man/woman for themselves with cut-throat competitivness in which the bold and strong win. I can’t tell you how many women I know who knew that if they wanted a guy they better sleep with him fast to try to keep his attention because if she didn’t, there were plenty more who would and she had no hope of trying to get/ keep his attention any other way with the distraction of free sex for all. This doesn’t work in most cases because he only was in it for the sex but because of the environment, she doesn’t really know that until after she’s slept with him by whether he sticks around to get to know more about her or if he moves on.

    Like

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s