Godly Women · Traditionalist Bird

A Submission Contradiction

Great observation over at FJ:

Scenario 1

A reader asks Lori:

I had a question regarding parenting. My daughter (3.5 years old) is a daddy’s girl and my husband is wrapped around her finger. Whenever I try to discipline her, he says I’m being too harsh and let’s her get away with everything and spoils her. How do you suggest handling this without overstepping my role as a wife?

FJ commentary:

The obvious answer (if Lori is consistent with her own “teaching”) is that she should submit to her husband’s wishes, and pray for the best. After all, she may be deceived about the best method of child raising (she’s only a silly woman, what does she know).

Lori’s response:

When he is at work, then is the time for you to train and discipline her without being harsh. Teach her to obey you as soon as you tell her to do anything. Consistency and following through are key, Luna. Your husband will appreciate having a well disciplined daughter as she grows older.

FJ commentary:

Why wait until he is at work, unless she is going against his wishes?

What Lori essentially advised, is for this woman to pretend to raise her daughter one way when her husband is home, and then immediately switch gears as soon as he’s safely out of sight.

Lori is also saying: “Your husband may think he wants his child raised a certain way, but I know better. When he’s not around, do it my way. He’ll appreciate it in the end.”
How is that submission?? 

Contrast all that with the following:

Scenario 2

A reader asks Lori:

“my husband wanted to apply for somethung and I reminded him to give all the information that they are asking for. My husband said he did not need to do that (rejecting what I told him) but then he finds they asked for the information that he did not bring which I mentioned to him that he should bring. Now it’s possible it might cost us the thing he applied for because of ignoring a simple reminder. May I ask how do I go about handling this because I’m quite frustrated over it. If my spouse makes a mistake the whole household will be in jeopardy.

… any advice for this matter would be greatly appreciated. “

Lori’s response:

“You can give him one reminder but if he doesn’t do as you have asked and suffers for it, along with the family, this is how it goes. He’s the head of the home and bears the responsibility of how to run it, whether it is successful or a failure. But you are only responsible for your behavior towards so continue to be kind, forgiving, showing grace, submissive, loving, and cheerful knowing that God is ultimately in control. Hopefully, he will learn from his mistakes.”

So in this second scenario the man is the head of the home and bears responsibility. The wife basically has to kick back and let whatever happens happen despite if it hurts the family. This contradicts with the first scenario over disciplining the daughter. In that scenario no more is the wife just suppose to surrender to what the husband wants ( which is a more permissive, coddling parenting style) and let the pieces fall where they may, NO, in this case the wife is to sneak around the husband and discipline her while he is at work. Why should she do this? Because the husband will appreciate a disciplined child in the end (and she knows best of course); however, as shown in the first scenario we are told not to meddle much and let the husband make his own mistakes, follow his wishes as the head no matter how it harms the family. If a man will appreciate a disciplined child in the end, how would he not appreciate having the correct information on hand for the application or whatever he was filling out in the first scenario? If the advice was consistent Lori should tell the reader in the first scenario to take action to make sure the husband gets the right information because he will appreciate the end results OR tell the reader in the second scenario to just accept an undisciplined child since that is essentially what the husband wants and he is the head of the home so you must follow his wishes no matter how it impacts the family.

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5 thoughts on “A Submission Contradiction

  1. I had David Coory’s book also. You can actually download it for free. It’s basically a fictional story of one woman who attends a FW class and uses some actual success stories from Helen Andelin’s own writings. I think he allows you to download for free because he can’t sell it — it’s sickly sweet, overly sappy and completely bogus. I downloaded it, printed it out and really took it to heart for some time. Finally I was able to toss it in the trash where it belonged — and not only sappy and absurd, the spelling was unbelieveable and the punctuation even worse! Even making allowances for the fact that spelling will be different in New Zealand than in the U.S.; even the British English wasn’t spelled correctly. Don’t get me started on how poorly he used commas, colons, semicolons, etc…….ugh. How unprofessional.

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  2. “The advice given was to hand everything over to our husbands, completely. When debt collectors call, simply hand him the phone and let him deal with them – refuse to get involved at all – if it’s his responsibility, HE must fix it. If the whole family suffers because of something he did, he will suffer too, but let him fix it by himself. And be gracious in the suffering.”

    Creditors do not care if you are a man or a woman. They want to be paid, regardless. And guess what — if he louses something up, BOTH credit scores are affected. And when/if the day of reckoning comes, and you find yourself with your credit history absolutely shot and kids to provide for, that AIN’T GONNA BE A PRETTY SCENARIO. If a bill happens to be in your name (such as a medical bill), YOU are going to be the one hounded by the collection agency, not him. Of course, his score will also be affected, but you will be the one with your reputation in shambles because you didn’t pay the bill that had your name on it.

    It’s that lovely community property law — he may be responsible in theory, but in actuality BOTH of you are responsible. You can quote Helen Andelin ’till you’re blue in the face and that won’t faze a creditor, a bank, or a mortgage company one iota. This isn’t a case of rebellion vs. submission — it’s a case of idiocy vs. common sense.

    Regarding the child rearing question — yep, been there, done that, SO done with that. Here, a case of submitting until your brains fall out. You look him squarely in the eye and say, “Look, honey, I know she’s your little girl. And if you keep on doing what you’re doing, you’re going to have her like one spoiled princess, and there are too many of those in the world. She needs discipline and firmness at times, that’s just reality. We’re doing it my way.” And then say nothing more. Just like I did at the dinner table: “Kids need small portions of food. They have small stomachs. Piling their plates high and expecting them to be able to polish them clean just because you had a huge appetite as a kid is ridiculous. We’re only going to end up with either eating problems or weight problems if we do it your way, so we’re doing it my way — a tiny portion of everything, and then when that’s gone, they are welcome to seconds, thirds, fourths, whatever, of anything they like on the table.” How I WISH I’d said that years ago! Oh, well, better late than never, right?

    This is getting more and more stupid every single day.

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  3. Does Lori really think that the mother will have any success disciplining her daughter when her husband is so permissive? Young children require consistency in discipline, and unless both parents are working together and on the same page, it’s a lost cause.

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  4. Another comment at Lori’s in response to scenario 2:

    Your experience is similar to something I read about in the “Fascinating Womanhood” book (written by David Coory, based on Helen Andelin’s teachings). The advice given in the book was, when our husband’s make mistakes, to not show our disapproval (or if we must do so, to do it respectfully, and just once then let it go) but also step right back and let them take full responsibility for fixing it. This is the way men learn and grow.
    Personally, that goes against every grain of my nature and I don’t know that I could do that … but then, applications for pretty much everything are made together in my house, so hopefully I will never have to be tested in that regard because I fear I would fail!

    The advice given was to hand everything over to our husbands, completely. When debt collectors call, simply hand him the phone and let him deal with them – refuse to get involved at all – if it’s his responsibility, HE must fix it. If the whole family suffers because of something he did, he will suffer too, but let him fix it by himself. And be gracious in the suffering.

    I guess then we really aren’t suppose to be help meets in areas outside of our own sphere. The sharp division of roles really can complicate things when they don’t have to be. These are your responsibilities and these are mine and we each have to solve our own problems. I mean heaven forbid a wife help her husband solve a problem that is technically his responsibility and double yikes to think a husband should concern himself with helping a wife solve a problem that is her responsibility. Teamwork is a foreign concept to the godlies. I wonder how many problems get delayed in solving because we can’t cross over and help in each other’s spheres.

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  5. “What Lori essentially advised, is for this woman to pretend to raise her daughter one way when her husband is home, and then immediately switch gears as soon as he’s safely out of sight.”

    Ay yay yay!

    That’s really bad for the mother-daughter relationship. She’s going to wind up being the Bad Cop.

    Lori said:

    ““You can give him one reminder but if he doesn’t do as you have asked and suffers for it, along with the family, this is how it goes.”

    Here’s what I’d say, “Honey, why don’t you take the extra papers? If you don’t need them, it’s no loss, but if you do need them and don’t have them, it will cost you an extra trip at least. Here you go!”

    I suppose that’s rebellion, though…

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