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40K and 6.5

Dr. Helen Quotes this:

Russell pointed to data that shows marriage rates increase for younger Americans in connection with salaries. Fewer than half of men between the ages of 30 and 34 who earn less than $40,000 a year are married. More than half of those who make more than $40,000 a year are married, including two-thirds of those who make between $75,000 and $100,000 a year.

“The point at which the average young man becomes ‘marriageable’ appears to be earnings of $40,000 a year or more,” Russell said.

And comments this:

I wonder what would happen if a woman had to be at least a 6.5 in looks in order to become ‘marrigeable’? This, of course would be considered an outrage.

The question is, are men working less and making less money because they don’t care as much about marriage or are they unable to get the salary they need in order to offset what a single woman can make by staying single and getting government assistance, particularly if she has children already?

I don’t know why this is so shocking. 40K seems to be the bare bones salary to raise a family. After taxes and health insurance is deducted from the paycheck, it should be around 2K left a month. Are women just suppose to be melting and going starry-eyed over a man who makes minimum wage and works at the gas station?

And women for the most part do have to look a 6.5 to get married. Women have to bring a bunch of traits to the table including looks, being fit at least, and men also have to bring a bunch of traits to the table-such as being a good provider.

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12 thoughts on “40K and 6.5

  1. TPC said:

    “40k a year is marriageable for men because that’s the lowest level at which your wife can work part-time and/or make half as much as you and the combined income offsets the marriage cliffs for getting EITC with kids.”

    Yes.

    There’s also the question of how prevalent employer-provided health insurance is at different wage levels. I suspect that $40k a year is right around the point where it’s common to have employer-provided health insurance. Competing with those two things (EITC + Medicaid) requires a solid income and/or the type of job with good benefits.

    “40k is also the beginning of “real prospects” in a lot of fields, where you are on track to steadily make more money given experience.”

    Right.

    “These days, it’s substantially harder to stay poor if you are hard working and industrious because there really are a lot of 35-50k jobs out there for average-intelligence people who show up reliably and work hard. The double-income minimum wage married couple is almost imaginary because any two people who are reliable and work hard will be making more than minimum wage before they get married (even if they marry at like 23).”

    Husband and I were making the equivalent of double minimum wage when we got married BUT a) housing costs were roughly 25% of income b) our first baby was born 4 years later, by which time husband had nearly doubled our initial household income and c) even that turned out to be rough going, at least at first. It took a number of years after that to get traction.

    And that was best possible circumstances–nothing really terrible happened during that time.

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  2. 40k a year is marriageable for men because that’s the lowest level at which your wife can work part-time and/or make half as much as you and the combined income offsets the marriage cliffs for getting EITC with kids. I.e., at 40k, a guy can marry a woman making 18-25k and if they have 1-3 kids, they are better off in actual money than a cohabiting couple where both make 20k (more typical, not wanting to put a ring on it correlates with not feeling like you need to make more money if/when a kid or two comes along) and get EITC for those kids.

    40k is also the beginning of “real prospects” in a lot of fields, where you are on track to steadily make more money given experience.

    These days, it’s substantially harder to stay poor if you are hard working and industrious because there really are a lot of 35-50k jobs out there for average-intelligence people who show up reliably and work hard. The double-income minimum wage married couple is almost imaginary because any two people who are reliable and work hard will be making more than minimum wage before they get married (even if they marry at like 23).

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  3. TPC said:

    “It used to be taught to girls and is easy enough to read about in older books that a woman can appear charming no matter what she actually looks like, and they weren’t talking about rouge and wigs. Being pleasant to be around can make a woman a 7+ to a man looking for a wife.”

    The first line of Gone With the Wind is, “Scarlet O’Hara was not beautiful, but men seldom realized it when caught by her charm as the Tarleton twins were.”

    There are certainly a lot of men who sincerely talk about their beautiful wife, even if to bystanders, she may seem quite plain.

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  4. Also, water finds its own level a decent amount of the time. Outside the manosphere there are plenty of men who are ok with a woman who is average in looks. It used to be taught to girls and is easy enough to read about in older books that a woman can appear charming no matter what she actually looks like, and they weren’t talking about rouge and wigs. Being pleasant to be around can make a woman a 7+ to a man looking for a wife.

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  5. Stone said:

    “Newsflash for Tad– Men have to get job skills marriage or not unless you are going to be that bum living at home or off the government. Working out and social skills are kinda handy to have too! Just saying. These men hate being compared to the basement dwellers with mom, but lets see if you are whining about getting a job, working out, social skills (if even for your own sake), that’s kinda where you end up.”

    Yeah.

    “By saying “a woman is born with all she needs” is that meaning female private parts?? Because I don’t think all women are born with a pleasant personality. We have to work at that along with staying fit. We aren’t just born perfect.”

    Right.

    I think there are a lot of delusions about how natural the stuff they like about women actually is.

    “If men don’t marry women will still find a way to have kids. Single motherhood by choice and then all those women will be labeled sluts or women will be so eager for kids they will accept just living together.”

    Right. That’s actually even in the Bible (Genesis 38). Tamar, Onan’s widow, was childless (because Onan had basically cheated her out of having a kid), and when her father-in-law didn’t give her her legal rights (marriage to the remaining brother), she pretended to be a prostitute, accosted her father-in-law while disguised, and got pregnant. She was running a huge risk. When her father-in-law found out she was pregnant out of wedlock, he said, ““Bring her out, and let her be burned!” She was saved in the nick of time by revealing his paternity, but it was a very near thing (“But as they were taking her out to kill her she sent this message to her father-in-law”). She had twin boys and (presumably) lived happily ever after.

    So, it is possible to keep women from getting married, but without the carrot of marriage, it’s not going to be an easy thing to keep women from having children outside of wedlock.

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  6. Newsflash for Tad– Men have to get job skills marriage or not unless you are going to be that bum living at home or off the government. Working out and social skills are kinda handy to have too! Just saying. These men hate being compared to the basement dwellers with mom, but lets see if you are whining about getting a job, working out, social skills (if even for your own sake), that’s kinda where you end up.
    By saying “a woman is born with all she needs” is that meaning female private parts?? Because I don’t think all women are born with a pleasant personality. We have to work at that along with staying fit. We aren’t just born perfect.

    If men don’t marry women will still find a way to have kids. Single motherhood by choice and then all those women will be labeled sluts or women will be so eager for kids they will accept just living together.

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  7. From the comments:

    “When I was single, I made less than a third of what I do now, and I had more than enough money for everything I needed and wanted, a huge saving account, all while working about 35 hours a week.”

    He goes on to tell the sad tale of how HARD and expensive his life is as a married father.

    What an interesting coincidence.

    When I was a newlywed grad student (joint income about $24k in the late 90s), our rent for a 1-bedroom apartment was $560 a month. There weren’t any savings and I was working a whole lot more than 35 hours a week, but we went out to eat at least every other night (not fancy places, obviously). Once I got out of graduate school (but before kids), I stopped working round the clock, so even working 2-4 jobs at a time, I had a lot more leisure. We went to movies, had dinner parties for friends, and I read a lot and I bought whatever books or clothes I wanted.

    However, once we moved to a higher cost-of-living area (it was the only job my husband got) and started having kids, our income doubled but our rent nearly tripled. Throw in a new baby, and we were suddenly much poorer and had no free time. (Things eventually improved a bit, but our first year of parenting was a huge economic leap backward.) Our household income is now a number of multiples of what it was in 1998, but the pie is now split in a lot of fine slices (and some fat slices that didn’t used to exist), so the “Amy books,” “Amy clothes,” “dinners and fun for two” slices are much skinnier than they used to be.

    Elspeth wrote: “The problem with this question is that it assumes women are en masse turning down men who don’t make at least 40K when I know (at least anecdotally) that it is not uncommon for a man to declare himself “not ready” because he isn’t making enough money yet.”

    Right.

    Uncle Maffoo says, “I’ll get my income above $40,000 as long as women get their weight below 120. Fair enough?”

    The line for Uncle Maffoo starts here! No pushing!

    Tad Freeman says, “A woman needs to simply not be overweight and have a pleasant personality to be marriage material. It’s a different story for most men. You must get jobs skills or get a college degree. You have to work out and develop social skills.. A woman is born with all she needs and a man must work for decades. The point is women claim its so hard to be female but they wouldn’t last a week having to be a man. Every single incentive for men to marry has been removed.”

    Wait–if men don’t want to get married, then how is it easy for women to get married?

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  8. You know what is a little irritating here? Wikipedia says that Dr. Helen “Helen Smith is a forensic psychologist in Knoxville, Tennessee, who specializes in violent children and adults. She holds a Ph.D from the University of Tennessee and master’s degrees from The New School for Social Research and the City University of New York.” Glenn Reynolds, her husband, ” is Beauchamp Brogan Distinguished Professor of Law at the University of Tennessee College of Law.” The absolute floor for income for that family is probably $150k if Dr. Helen weren’t bringing home a dime–which I doubt very much. I suspect that $200k and up is much more likely. They have, as I recall, one (1.00) child.

    Hence, her treating $40k a year for a breadwinner as some sort of outlandish expectation is at least a little bit gross.

    Also, it’s important to note that men themselves often do not wish to marry when their incomes are low.

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  9. “or are they unable to get the salary they need in order to offset what a single woman can make by staying single and getting government assistance, particularly if she has children already?”

    This is a stupid question. Why do they act like it’s every girls dream to have a passel of kids and live on government assistance? Sure there are shiftless types or low IQ or those raised that way themselves that don’t know any better that that might be the goal or what they settle for but outside of that pool of women, the majority of women who want marriage and family know what they will need financially so the WON’T have to live on government assistance. I also think the bar is set so low at 40000 because women work now too and expect to add their own 30000-40000 to the pot so the marriage can start out at a comfortable 70000-80000 with the hopes of promotions and raises along the way as the family grows.

    If a woman really does have her heart set on doing the SAHM thing, then the financial bar will be set higher than 40000 so she can achieve that. She will need to see that the career the potential husband has chosen has lots of room for income growth even if he’s not making a ton to begin with.

    As far as comparing a man’s wages to a woman’s looks-that’s poppycock. One is an issue of survival for the family and the other is just personal preference.

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  10. 40K is a really low bar. Anyone who is even a little bit serious about providing for a family should be able to manage that.

    I don’t think that women have to be 6.5 to get married either. The chubby plain janes that I know all got married. And they are married to men who probably make a lot more than 40k a year.

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  11. Nonya said:

    “40K is a really low bar. Anyone who is even a little bit serious about providing for a family should be able to manage that. I don’t think that women have to be 6.5 to get married either. The chubby plain janes that I know all got married. And they are married to men who probably make a lot more than 40k a year.”

    Also, if I’m understanding the scale properly, 6.5 is above median, whereas $40k a year is well below the $59k median US household income.

    http://www.businessinsider.com/us-census-median-income-2017-9

    So, apples and oranges. Asking for 6.5 as a lower bar for marriage for women is like asking for $80k minimum for men (maybe $70k, but definitely above median).

    I expect at lower income levels, medical insurance is the killer. Again, the median total medical costs for a family of four are almost $26k, with the employee-paid share of that being $11k..

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/danmunro/2016/05/24/annual-healthcare-cost-for-family-of-four-now-at-25826/#7abbb7bc1f52

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