Bird Watching

This page is to share random quotes (tweets) and any thoughts from observing any feminist birds, traditionalist birds or angry birds. Comments flow from newest at the top to the oldest. A bit awkward to read that way but save tons of page scrolls to the most recent discussions.

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2,141 thoughts on “Bird Watching

  1. Two Christian manosphere views:

    1. Women who leave home and go to college or have careers are slutty sluts.

    2. Women ought to go to where the men are.

    ???????

    Related:

    1. Women ought to go to where the men are.

    2. Women shouldn’t go into male-dominated professions.

    Liked by 1 person

  2. seriously serving made a good point in the June Cleaver thread:

    “When I was in my late teens and preparing to leave home (2005-2006ish), I was very up front with people about my desire to marry young and start a family, and the fact that this was a main reason I was moving away to a bigger city.
    I received comments from multiple men, that I should “be careful how loudly you say that, or you will scare the men away.”
    So, I wonder how many young women actually want to marry young, but they don’t want to say this because they feel like it will scare the men away?
    I’ve certainly heard from young men and women alike, when asked if they are dating anyone, things like “Oh no, I’m not really ready for a relationship now/don’t have time for a relationship”. But the same person has started dating just months down the track, presumably when the right person came along.
    How many of these comments (“I’m not ready/not interested/ etc.) are just a self-protective thing, not wanting to seem “desperate”?”

    Yeah.

    I did more or less the same when there weren’t any good prospects on the horizon. In fact, I told the guy I wasn’t really that into that I was only planning on getting married at 25.

    When you actually LIKE the person, you find time.

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  3. From the June Cleaver thread.

    Gary Eden says:

    “If you want a Biblical marriage you need more than sewing. Teach her also to obey her husband, no matter how much she disagrees, look to him as her spiritual leader, to seek always to please and help him, and to sexually please him however he wants.”

    Lawdamercy. “However he wants” is a pretty broad category these days.

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  4. I have to ask too if the whole women can win men over “without a word” thing is so powerful and true then shouldn’t women be able to marry non Christians and bring them to Christ without a word. That would sure open up the dating pool. I wouldn’t say go for an atheist or someone with low morals, but someone at least open to Christianity.

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  5. Stone said:

    “Via the manosphere most men have been conditioned to be fearful of women.”

    And (paradoxically), that fear makes them more likely to fail.

    It’s like the “dogs can smell fear” thing.

    Also, June Cleaver probably wasn’t June Cleaver as a single woman. In the TV show, she’s a mother of two school age boys–that’s what, probably 15 years of marriage? Ditto Ward Cleaver–that’s him after 15+ years of marriage.

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  6. I”ll take a bite at Scott’s new post where the trouble of young Christians finding spouses is discussed. Its the first piece I have seen that actually suggests ya know maybe June Cleaver isn’t actually attractive to men…
    https://americandadweb.wordpress.com/2017/03/23/june-cleaver-might-be-unmarriageble-right-now/

    “If all the rhetoric of the manosphere/NRx/Traditonalist blogger and commenters has uncovered something, then it seems there is way more work to do on defining the solutions then “women who want to marry just be June Cleaver.” This is as oversimplified as Dennis Pragers “men who want to marry just be Ward Cleaver.”

    Yes this I agree with and was the thrust behind this post
    https://twobirdsstone.wordpress.com/2016/05/28/bpd-widowers/

    June Cleaver women are simply boring. They are just as boring to men as beta or lower ranking males are to women. In theory it all sounds nice, but in practice men want a woman with at least a bit of an edge. Both men and women like to think of ourselves as being more wholesome than we actually are. Plus, if men want that super enthusiastic sex life, the woman to do that is going to have some spunk. She isn’t going to be June Cleaver. There may be something to explore there as to why in the 1950s it was common for men to have mistresses. They had their June Cleaver wife to present well, for dinner parties, to meet societal expectations and then on the side they had their sexual goddess, who wasn’t groomed to be submissive and frigid.

    The standard manosphere line though is the reason women can’t find any men is because they “aren’t sweet, and signaling a willingness to a be quiet, deferent, submissive, peaceful help-meet.” The story goes just do those things and you will instantly have many men throwing themselves at you. The reality is far, far from that. It sure didn’t help me in the dating years. Being the “good girl” gets you nowhere.Like they say “nice guys finish last”. Same for nice girls. Nowadays though both nice girls and nice guys don’t finish at all. You have to develop some spunk and personality or the men just overlook you for all the women who do have that. It is a marketplace afterall and competition is fierce.

    “For example, what if the culture (and by this we mean “conservative Christian culture”) has failed to produce young people of either sex who are aware of what marriage is, what it is for, how to find/make one, etc in numbers large enough to create a healthy pool of possible choices for them? Haven’t most men in those pews been conditioned to be pedastlizing, obsequious orbiters? Are there natural “alphas” and leaders in those pews who’s potential has been stymied? Is the average man in today’s church prepared to say “no” to his wife? To be the calm in her irrational emotional storms?”

    And the manosphere/red pill world isn’t helping matters. Aren’t most men online conditioned to believe AWALT? That all women are ultimately bitches. All women will eventually frivorce you. Once you start living and believing this about women its easy to become fearful and hesitant of women no matter how well you were traditionally groomed. Via the manosphere most men have been conditioned to be fearful of women. Its my theory as to why a man will be dating/courting a girl (as the Story Scott shares in the beginning) then all of a sudden lose interests. Sounds like typical fear/cold feet. A few men in the sphere have even recently taken notice to how bitter they have become. And of course women subconsciously pick up on that bitter vibe, reject the man, then the cycle continues. The man blames the woman for being too picky for being AWALT and day dreams if only they could find June Cleaver…..(some will find June on one of the red pill woman blogs and spend his day orbiting around her where it is safe online than continue on in the real dating world or participating in their marriage).
    I am also surprised he suggested that men should help calm women’s emotional storms. Generally, feeeeeelings and emotions are treated as the woman’s problem and there is not an ounce of empathy. Once again, fear. Men don’t know how to handle female emotions, so when faced with it they run for the hills. Again, this is kinda what men get when men claim they want June Cleaver or the weaker sex. Traditionally raised women are more likely groomed to bottle their emotions under the “be quiet and meek” rule. Don’t ever vent or share your opinions, hurt feelings, etc. So, yeah sometimes that bottle bursts and women have no clue what to do with it and either does the man. If she is the weaker sex and men want the weaker sex then they need to be the stronger sex and be that rock to her storms.

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  7. “And also because they have gotten to the developmental point where they can detect the slightest flaw, inconsistency, or hypocrisy in their mom’s behavior, but aren’t able to apply the same sort of scrutiny to themselves.

    It is a pretty bracing stage! Very good for mom’s self-awareness, though!”

    Oh, absolutely yes…..your image goes out the minute their awareness comes in. See me for the imperfect human being that I am….it’s interesting seeing the difference between my little ones and how they view me as opposed to my teenagers….God is giving you an opportunity to gain the virtue of humility.

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  8. Anonymous said:

    “And it’s not because they are rebellious and disobedient (not always), it’s mostly because they have different personalities and they are also working on trying to figure out who they are (which in Fundie Land is forbidden).”

    And also because they have gotten to the developmental point where they can detect the slightest flaw, inconsistency, or hypocrisy in their mom’s behavior, but aren’t able to apply the same sort of scrutiny to themselves.

    It is a pretty bracing stage! Very good for mom’s self-awareness, though!

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  9. Stone said:

    “The other thing about the woman who wrote that article her twin babies are 16 months or so (from what I could determine on her blog) and she has an air about that it will be smooth sailing here on out. Speaking a bit too soon. Every parent eventually reaches an age where the kids are the most difficult.
    “Its like a newlywed writing about how great marriage is. How easy it is to say a few months in!”

    Yeah, I hate that.

    It’s bad enough when people blog those thoughts, but actual editors choose them and PUBLISH them.

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  10. Anonymous said:

    “I would have to say that this was my story as well — when I had fewer children and when they were younger.”

    Yeah. I forget if this was when I had one or two, but there was a time when the nap was reliable enough that I was seeing a tutoring client during nap time as well as (if I remember correctly) seeing my language tutor during the nap. That was a golden era, but eventually it was over–the naps got out of sync and/or my oldest stopped napping.

    Nowadays, I kind of kick myself for working then–I should have been doing something more important, like taking a nap instead…When I had my third (with the two oldest being in school) I took ALL the naps until she gave hers up.

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  11. “Every parent eventually reaches an age where the kids are the most difficult.
    Its like a newlywed writing about how great marriage is. How easy it is to say a few months in!”

    Exactly. Which is why she has no business spouting off. Wait until you have a teen. I’ll be the first to say that it is nothing as difficult as a bunch of people said it would be, but we do have our spats. And it’s not because they are rebellious and disobedient (not always), it’s mostly because they have different personalities and they are also working on trying to figure out who they are (which in Fundie Land is forbidden).

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  12. If the home is a woman’s sphere then she is is the manager of that sphere she needs to be free to run it as she see’s fit without micromanaging. Within reason of course. I mean if she is giving the kids candy all day long, the husband should step in but most women are capable to run their home as they want. I do know with everyone marrying later in life these days the men got use to a certain set of ways of how they want things done (like towels folded). Minor things in the scheme of things, but now that he has a a wife he should focus on his work and she focuses on her, which can mean folding towels however she wants.

    The other thing about the woman who wrote that article her twin babies are 16 months or so (from what I could determine on her blog) and she has an air about that it will be smooth sailing here on out. Speaking a bit too soon. Every parent eventually reaches an age where the kids are the most difficult.
    Its like a newlywed writing about how great marriage is. How easy it is to say a few months in!

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  13. “This is if your baby naps…
    As usual, one woman taking her experience and applies to every woman despite her protests she isn’t trying to discredit parenting and the important role moms do.”

    I would have to say that this was my story as well — when I had fewer children and when they were younger. (I did train my babies, but not in the way the Pearls advocate, but I did “train” them and the baby years were great for me.) It wasn’t difficult from the day to day — the difficult part was trying to please a man in the midst of it all. The responsibilities with the children became overwhelming when I tried to be the submissive wife and do things my HUSBAND’S way when it came to training and raising the children. To this day I bitterly regret shelving my better judgment and doing things his way for so many years. It was a disaster. We are still picking up the pieces, but since I put my foot down and decreed that I had had enough and that we were going to do things my way, things have gradually become better, although it has been a rough road.

    It just goes to show how poisonous the “submission” talk can be and how much devastation it can wreak on families.

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  14. That thread is pretty solid evidence that the Dalrock guys do not have each others’ best interests at heart.

    Well most of the men there are either chronically single, divorced or in a bad marriage. They either don’t know better or they want others to be as miserable as they are. And then there is the Titus 2 blog side of the coin where women married to awful men try to convince other women that their husband’s poor behavior is reasonable. Most of the advice given online should be ignored entirely.

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  15. http://theweek.com/articles/684153/yes-im-stayathome-mom-no-isnt-hardest-job-world

    Thoughts? Comes across as sanctimommish.
    “In my current career as a stay-at-home mom, I have it pretty good. I can write in the middle of the morning. I often do my favorite workout when my babies nap, and I can do laundry in the afternoon (if I feel like it). I decide when to take my lunch break, and no one reprimands me for being away from my desk. I don’t even have to abide by a dress code, which means that most days, I don’t have to wear real pants.”

    This is if your baby naps…
    As usual, one woman taking her experience and applies to every woman despite her protests she isn’t trying to discredit parenting and the important role moms do.

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  16. Dare I say this is why the Five Love Languages can be so important. One of the languages is gifts. Find a woman where gifts rank the lowest and physical touch the highest then poof you got a woman who doesn’t care about gifts and wants physical touch the most. But nahhhhh they all poo-poo that book.

    I think by expecting something on birthday it doesn’t always have to be something material, women will still appreciate the acknowledgment or some sort of gesture (like letting her sleep in). Doing at least something small sends the message “I am happy you were born and can share your life with me”. Not to mention these so-called unimportant holidays help break up the monotony for sahms and provide something different.

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  17. “That thread is pretty solid evidence that the Dalrock guys do not have each others’ best interests at heart. It’s not exactly high maintenance to expect SOMETHING on one’s birthday or Valentine’s from one’s significant other.”

    I am not a big gift person, so it’s not that important to me. However, I married a man for whom it is a huge deal. You forget his birthday, nameday, Sacramental anniversaries, Christmas at your peril. Not necessarily always a gift, but he definitely feels hurt if there’s no gift, and if there’s not a special dinner that took plenty of time and effort to prepare, WATCH OUT. This was easier to do when there were fewer other responsibilities, but he expected them even when life became overwhelming. I wonder what the ‘spherians would say to that.

    For me, a great gift is simply a house that is quiet….and maybe nobody asking for fifty things at once. That’s all I want. Of course, if a woman asks merely for those things and she is unfortunate enough to be married to a ‘spherian, then they will see to it that the noise is increased and that there are more demands on what she can do within a two hour period. Generally, what you may want/need/request, you will get the exact opposite. That is ‘spherian wife-training logic….teaches her to no longer ask for anything and remember if she needs something, keep her mouth shut about it and maybe she’ll get it — just maybe……

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  18. Nonya said:

    “I certainly hope that a woman would break up with a man that forgot her birthday or Valentine’s Day before he had a chance to break up with her. Why would a woman marry someone who isn’t even interested in pleasing her? I think that manosphere types are looking for desperate women who have so little self respect that they will put up with being treated poorly.”

    That thread is pretty solid evidence that the Dalrock guys do not have each others’ best interests at heart. It’s not exactly high maintenance to expect SOMETHING on one’s birthday or Valentine’s from one’s significant other.

    The thing about the Ovid quote is that it’s advice to a guy pursuing an illicit relationship–we’re not talking about a prospective wife or actual wife. Hence, it’s a relatively low risk strategy in that context. But in the context of marriage, it’s darn near suicidal.

    With regard to birthdays and Valentine’s, I believe in clear communication of moderate expectations beforehand, with plenty of fair warning. I also think that a) it’s not a bad thing for grownups to take initiative in doing something about their own birthdays b) it’s nice to do something for your boyfriend or husband’s birthday and c) it’s nice for women to do something for Valentine’s, too. (There are some obvious options for married ladies.)

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  19. Anonymous,

    You’re right about what the speech ought to sound like.

    Nobody knows exactly what their unborn children’s needs are going to be.

    And no, Ma Ingalls was not homeschooling college algebra/trigonometry or AP physics in her sod house…

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  20. From the comments of this post
    https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2017/03/20/ovid-game-tip-dont-visit-her-on-her-birthday/

    I’d suggest “forgetting” her birthday — and expecially Valentine’s Day — before you even ask a woman to marry you. If she makes it a big deal, DON’T.

    I certainly hope that a woman would break up with a man that forgot her birthday or Valentine’s Day before he had a chance to break up with her. Why would a woman marry someone who isn’t even interested in pleasing her? I think that manosphere types are looking for desperate women who have so little self respect that they will put up with being treated poorly.

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  21. Suppose this hypothetical girl were to respond as follows to any of the questions regarding priorities and goals: “I would like to do such-and-such, but knowing children as I do (let’s say she teaches for a living), I realize that sometimes what you plan isn’t necessarily what’s best for the children/family, so while I plan to homeschool, I know that it is very possible that one or more of my children may eventually need to attend an institutional school because their educational needs will be best met in that way. I want to do it, but I am not going to make an idol of it, just as I am not going to make an idol out of my husband and children — I need to keep the big picture in mind when making decisions. My children will obviously be the most vulnerable and need me the most, so I’m going to be balanced in making decisions about priorities.”

    That DEFINITELY won’t go over well. These men won’t ever tolerate having the needs of children trumping their own, nor will they tolerate the possibility that an institutional school might best meet the needs of their children (and for that matter, their wives), unless of course it is THEIR decision alone.

    It’s OK for a man to say all that, but a woman may NEVER say that if she wants to get married to any one of these characters, or she’ll be dumped like a hot potato ASAP. I wish I had given that little speech years ago to a certain man. Now I’m stuck in a very no-win situation with a highschooler and two preschoolers — yow. I’m lucky if I get four hours of straight sleep a night what with all the worrying about the fact we’re behind, the fact that my six year old can’t read, and the fact that I’m having to retake algebra nights so I can keep one step ahead of my son who is behind other kids his age anyway because we can’t keep up…..not to mention trying to grade his essays while dealing with the complaints that dinner isn’t on the table yet. And these know-it-all men spouting about how cushy our lives are, and how we are living on the gravy train and should be running a home business on the side — I’d say more, but I’d like to continue being a lady.

    What a bunch of idiots…..

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  22. Here’s one:

    https://deepstrength.wordpress.com/2017/03/17/be-a-wise-conversationalist-not-an-interviewer/

    I actually like the title: “Be a wise conversationalist, not an interviewer”

    “Have fun. Getting to know someone shouldn’t be a bore or an interview. This is generally also why I prefer activity dates as opposed to sitting down and eating.”

    Yes! Movie-plus-dinner is also fine, too. A smart CAFer says her mom recommends that, rather than dinner-plus-movie in order to make sure there’s something to talk about over dinner.

    “Start with the her, not her history. Get to know who she is now first.”

    That’s a good point.

    “Don’t throw out questions one after the other. That’s an interview.”

    Yep.

    “If you’re talking about your family, you can throw in a transition to an “interview” question about family. An example of this would be you’re chatting about your background and how you were raised (e.g. the past), then you can throw in a question about how she would like to raise her family, if and when (e.g. the future). As you can see, talking about your past can be transitioned to a question about how she sees the future playing out.”

    And here I think we’ve made a a wrong turn.

    If this is a first date, it’s going to sound like too much, too soon.

    Also, to be perfectly frank, it’s unlikely that a very young woman (or man) is going to have a lot of insight into how they themselves were raised, because in one’s early 20s, one just doesn’t have a lot of frame of reference as to how other families work.

    Also, an early 20-something’s ideas on how to raise her own family are likely to be rather naive or unformed. When I was a newlywed of that age, I expected that we would have 4-6 children and homeschool and I would be a perfect homemaker. Boy, was I in for some surprises…

    I also think that it’s very bad to be overcommitted to particular theories, rather than committed to overall family welfare. One has to be prepared for the eventuality that one is going to have to go back to the drawing board repeatedly with regard to one’s vision for one’s family. But fortunately, we don’t make our wedding vows to “the plan.”

    “Ask about current events. There’s so much feminism, divorce, sex change, homosexuality, and so on prevalent in the media nowadays that it’s not hard to solicit an opinion (not even in the form of a question) on how you can learn about her values.”

    ????

    I hope this isn’t supposed to be first date material.

    “Generally speaking, going with the list that I wrote in the link above, you want to start with less intimate topics and work toward there. Delving into family divorce history on a first date is generally not a wise idea.”

    Yeah.

    I’d say that a lot of his proposed topics are actually pretty intimate.

    “I personally like starting with her hopes and dreams, her relationship with God, what she values, and who she wants to be in the future. You can tell a lot about someone and their identity (in Christ or not in Christ) from these few things. Also, pretty easy to throw some teasing around too.”

    ?????

    This is muy Protestante–I cannot imagine this going over well with a cradle Catholic, even a VERY devout cradle Catholic.

    I know they say that this is supposed to be fun if the guy does it right–but it doesn’t sound fun. It sounds nosy and annoying.

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  23. I haven’t had the guts to watch the real BBC video (because I can imagine the same thing happening to me and my husband), but the parody one with the female interviewee was HILARIOUS. I almost had a Starbucks spit take when the SWAT team showed up.

    I guess the reason the one with the woman didn’t stress me out was that it’s not my life.

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  24. Yes, the guy who wrote the piece said that was a major flaw on dad’s part. Not only was the door not locked but left partially open. Of course if dad is home and accessible the kids will eventually seek him out, especially if they hear his voice. lol. It was nice to see this guy’s take in which he assumes dad had some responsibility in the antics rather than the feminist who assumed it was all on the mom to keep the kids out.

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  25. “It is a very interesting thing that a lot of these pieces assume a blue collar husband. Whereas, back in the real world, there are a lot of women with professional husbands where the SAHM wife’s daily work is much more physically taxing than the husband’s work.”

    Yes, a lot of men have desk jobs. Oh how us sahms would love a day just to sit still in one place all day. I do think one reason women go back to work is to get that desk job so they can relax, to be able to have a hot lunch sitting down for a whole hour, to go to the bathroom in peace.

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  26. Nonya said:

    “But Lori says that there should be no welfare though the government because family and church will take care of people in need. Here is yet another example of that not working out, but I’m sure that won’t stop Lori from making that claim again.”

    Yep.

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  27. @AmyP

    About number 3 – this is such a huge failure of family and community. A widow with 8 children should have church family and blood relatives helping her on a very regular basis. But Lori says that there should be no welfare though the government because family and church will take care of people in need. Here is yet another example of that not working out, but I’m sure that won’t stop Lori from making that claim again.

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  28. This is going to be very jumbled, but here are some thoughts on the plumbing piece:

    1. I guess there wasn’t any/enough life insurance or they could have just called the plumber and gotten it done the next day for probably $80-$160.

    2. What was her initial game plan when the hot water went out and she just had her kids heating water on the stove for baths? Was she planning on doing that indefinitely? Just imagine washing dishes and doing laundry with cold water–that’s not even hygienic.

    3. Where the heck was their church community? If you were pastor, wouldn’t you be dying of embarrassment to hear that a widow with 8 children had no hot water? And where the heck was the extended family? Even if they weren’t local, this is a very small financial need (as financial needs go). If this were my sister-in-law, I would be dying of embarrassment to hear that my widowed relative and nieces and nephews had no hot water and didn’t think to mention it to me. Plus, where are the grandparents? Was there not a single living grandparent with a couple hundred dollars in a cookie jar?

    4. Note the interesting contrast between the two messages in this single short piece: a) be grateful you as a woman don’t have to do all the things! b) do all the things!

    5. The writer is admirably handy if she knew how to fix her plumbing problem.

    6. As self-reliant as she is, it doesn’t sound like she could have managed this job without a sturdy teenage boy helping. Also, I would not encourage women with only small children to try this type of thing while home alone with little kids.

    7. Regarding my #4, I feel like this piece goes in a lot of different directions. If I were an editor, I think I would break it into several different pieces or encourage her to focus more. One possibility would be a story of how she as a widowed and destitute mom managed to fix a plumbing problem–and it made her appreciate all the things her husband used to do for her and the kids! Another possibility would be a story of how she as a widowed and destitute mother managed to fix a plumbing problem–and you, too, can learn how to do home maintenance if you put your mind to it!

    But I don’t think it even makes sense to push the two views in #4 at the same time.

    She also goes in yet another direction with this: “Imagine if you went outside for a day and did a man’s work going up and down a ladder with tools and lumber and metal. Would you feel tired? Now consider this. After you come in that front door, would you want to be greeted with a smiling or a sour face? Which one would motivate you with just a bit more energy?”

    So, rather than do all the things, we should greet our husbands with a smile…and then have him do all the things.

    (And by the way, what kind of social moron immediately lays into their spouse without saying hello when the spouse comes home? Assuming there’s nothing on fire/no flood/etc. Were these people raised by wolves?)

    8. This also calls for a bit more attention: “Imagine if you went outside for a day and did a man’s work going up and down a ladder with tools and lumber and metal.”

    It is a very interesting thing that a lot of these pieces assume a blue collar husband. Whereas, back in the real world, there are a lot of women with professional husbands where the SAHM wife’s daily work is much more physically taxing than the husband’s work.

    This is a characteristic tic of Red Pill women and submission bloggers–even when they themselves have white collar husbands. I personally think it’s not very respectful to be obviously panting for blue collar guys when your husband is an office worker.

    (That’s the obligatory liquid plumr double impact ad, where the female heroine obviously has similar issues.)

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  29. I have another one:

    https://thetransformedwife.com/please-dont-take-your-husband-for-granted/

    This isn’t LA herself, but a reader’s SIL who was widowed in 2012 and left with 8 children to raise. It’s an interesting piece that goes in a number of different directions. I’ll pull out some quotes and then probably do a separate post to talk about the piece.

    “We did it again. The water heater gave out on us, so we boiled water on the stove top, and the children found out how to survive without hot water at their fingertips. Yes, they did say, “Looks like we need to go to our neighbors for a shower.” I said, “Oh no you don’t; this is great opportunity for you to see how we did it every day when I was growing up.” Yes, finally I got tired of it and told Merlin to go under the house and see if he can figure out where the heat element is then we will go see if we can get a replacement. He’s like, “Mom I have no idea how, I’m only 15 and nobody ever showed me how to do it. How am I supposed to know?””

    After much tussling, trips under the house, and getting soaked, the mom and teenage son manage to get the job done. Then we start drawing lessons, which is where things get even weirder:

    “So I have two messages for you ladies out there. Did you know there are a whole lot of things you can do around the house if you put your mind to it? You do not need to wait till your husband comes home to do it because more than ever I realize how hard a man’s work is, and how much we take for granted. He too gets tired and who will comfort him?”

    “Do you have any idea what it does to me when I hear wives say, “Oh, but my husband just doesn’t help much around the house, and oh, he just isn’t very strict with the children in their training like he should be. That’s why they are so loud and rowdy.” You know what I instantly think? You are one ungrateful woman … Nope, I will not even call you a lady because a lady does not talk like that.”

    “Now consider this, be glad you only need to be a house keeper and get to mother your little ones. Be glad you have a husband who gets the job of supporting you. Be glad that you don’t have to worry about making the money on top of mothering. Be glad you get to be a help meet. You are there to help, not drain. You are created to meet his need. You are the one he choose. Can’t you just let that alone bring joy to your heart?”

    “What I’m saying is, please do not take your husband for granted, and please do not let me hear you complain. If it hurts me, imagine how it makes God feel…”

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  30. Why is it so taboo for moms to be able to admit that sometimes the day is hard, sometimes it flat out sucks and that is OK. Not everyday has to be this a glossy snapshot from a parenting magazine or a mommy blog and that is OK. What I have noticed it that moms are allowed to say things are hard, BUT they have to buffer it with some variation of “but I wouldn’t trade my kids for the world”.

    Example– saying simply and on its own “Motherhood sucks sometimes” is BAD! This implies you are not maternal and maybe even hate your kids. BUT if you say “Motherhood sucks sometimes, but I wouldn’t trade it for anything in the world”. GOOD! Ding, ding, you gave enough of a glossy cushioning for everyone to not question your maternal side.

    Liked by 1 person

  31. TPC said:

    “Sometimes this kind of thing happens with higher-earning households, where there’s just a bizarre freakout about spending money on services”

    I have one of those in my circle.

    Here’s an interesting related oddity. “Help” and services are anathema…unless you slap the term “medical” or “therapy” on it and charge 3X as much. Then everything is A-OK.

    At some point in my career as a special needs mom, I started to realize that anything that helps my child is therapeutic, so I just stopped drawing that bright line between therapeutic and non-therapeutic expenses.

    Like

  32. Stone said:

    “There seems to be a traditionalist thing where the man is to shield the wife from the horrors of the bad, bad world, including the nasty working part and the wife is to shield her husband from the bad, bad world of home life, of the mess and chaos that can ensue. So, they both don’t get a full picture of whats really going and everyone lives in their own bubble.”

    Yeah. So BOTH parties get to resent the heck out of the other.

    “Just put on a smile and pretend all is great!! Again, how healthy! If you can’t be honest with your husband, who can you be? This isn’t the cashier at the store where you automatically say your are “good” in making polite conversation (whether you are good or not). I see this as basically lying to your husband.”

    Yep.

    “No wonder some of the men think being a sahm is so easy, their wives just tell them how great every day is!”

    It’s not even necessarily THEIR own wives–it’s them taking one of these internet ladies (or occasionally an internet SAHD) at face value.

    Like

  33. TPC,
    Yes, its act like the husband/dad is a ticking time bomb. Don’t let him see a mess or it may set him off. Walking on eggshells.

    Like

  34. In talking about women staying home Lori says today:
    “It is all I ever wanted to do too, Lisa. I didn’t care that it wasn’t politically correct. It was my heart’s desire and it was good.”

    So, let me get this straight–following your hearts desire for home is good, but if your hearts desire is for a career or no kids, that is bad! How do we know when you should and should not follow your hearts desire. Isn’t that just following fleeting feeeeelings?

    Like

  35. A lot of it comes down to money and all the weird tradcon and regular-conservative views about money. Having mom stay home and not bring in money because if absolutely nothing goes wrong ever and you all live off beans, rice and more beans you can live on dad’s salary is totally a scenario that leads to “I have to hide the toys!!”, because the whole situation is about avoiding the underlying economic problem.

    Sometimes this kind of thing happens with higher-earning households, where there’s just a bizarre freakout about spending money on services, but IME the whole ego protection of the husband when you get down in the weeds is usually about him not being a very sufficient sole provider and the resulting tension and stress at mom not being prepared to deal with the chaos of being a SAHM without other women around and no financial leeway (no treat spending or being able to take the kids to anything so the house can stay clean for a little while once it’s done).

    Like

  36. I have a lot to say about all this. Warrants its own post but since the discussion is happening here I will keep it here. I’ve always taken issue with this idea of “let”. If a woman is “letting” or “allowing” as I wrote about here
    https://twobirdsstone.wordpress.com/2015/12/02/women-allowing-men-to-lead/

    She is the one in control and leading the relationship. She has to the power to allow or disallow him being a man. In this example the woman is still dominating, just not overtly. There seems to be a traditionalist thing where the man is to shield the wife from the horrors of the bad, bad world, including the nasty working part and the wife is to shield her husband from the bad, bad world of home life, of the mess and chaos that can ensue. So, they both don’t get a full picture of whats really going and everyone lives in their own bubble. What a healthy way to live! We prefer to deal in reality and I imagine a lot of men to do. They are men after all. They can handle some hard truths of reality.

    I agree with the comments here about coddling. That is exactly what is going on. Treating husbands like delicate babies rather than grown men. Expressing the reality of what happened a particular day isn’t complaining and truth shouldn’t bother a strong man. The tone is what makes it complaining, not the facts.

    “If he calls to ask how our day is going, I always tell him it’s great so he doesn’t dread coming home to chaos.”

    Talk about bottling it all up for an explosion later. Wow. Plastic stepford wives these women really are. Just put on a smile and pretend all is great!! Again, how healthy! If you can’t be honest with your husband, who can you be? This isn’t the cashier at the store where you automatically say your are “good” in making polite conversation (whether you are good or not). I see this as basically lying to your husband. If he asks how your day is he probably genuinely wants to know. Its not just small talk. So, if a woman says its great when it wasn’t he gets this fake picture of home life. No wonder some of the men think being a sahm is so easy, their wives just tell them how great every day is!

    Like

  37. Nonya said:

    “What this woman is actually saying that is she has to pretend to need help in some areas while hiding that things that she actually needs assistance with.”

    Yes. It’s not very honest or constructive.

    Like

  38. One other thing-

    Have they read Proverbs 31? A good wife is considered one who goes about conducting her own affairs and making decisions for the good of the household. It doesn’t say anything about running to him to get his opinion on the purchase of the field or on what type of cloth she should make that day. It gives the impression that because of her character and abilities, her husband is free to assume his own role without having to mircomanage hers.

    Like

  39. “Also, she doesn’t want to “waste his precious home time complaining about my tough day,”

    Letting her husband know about problems that have cropped up during the day doesn’t necessarily mean she’s complaining. It depends on how you approach it. Dad should know if little Billy has been uncooperative lately and takes three times as long to get his school work done than it should take or if little Mary had been told 4 or 5 times to vacuum the living room and still hasn’t done it. Even if mom got it all worked out before the end of the day, dad should know what went on so he can decide if he thinks there’s anything else he would like to do about it. Mom, of course, should use discretion in deciding on what’s just a rare occurance that can be left to pass and what is a set in stubborness that needs lots of attention to redirect course, but dad shouldn’t be kept in the dark about EVERTHING as if he’s so fragile that things need to be kept from him lest he collapse under the weight.

    Problems with this kind of advice-

    1) It gives the impression of dad as the delicate flower who can’t handle hearing anything negative or seeing toys on the floor.

    2) It causes mom to hold in everything that’s bothering her and may lead to her developing resentment towards her husband because she always has to protect him from normal family stressors.

    3) When mom does explode from holding everything in, dad, who has been going along thinking everything is hunky-dory, is more likely to determine that mom is just having an irrational, hormonal moment so he gives her a “there, there” pat on the head but no real problems are solved.

    4) It assumes dad doesn’t care about mom’s problems and that his are more important. It makes it seem like he is so self-centered that only his happiness matters.

    5) How much help can his wife be if he has to make decisions on the minutia of homeschooling details and what his wife wears or her Biblical problems (whatever that is). She’s making herself into the oldest child in the house rather than a perfectly capable adult who he can trust to decide on most of the details and who will hash out the rest with him on the big stuff.

    6) She is creating “things for him to do” so it can seem like he’s the man. It’s not up to her to bestow his manhood on him. She’s actually deciding what he should know and make decisions about rather than leaving that up to him. He’s a man because he’s a grown adult male who is married, has children and assumes his responsibility in providing for them and seeing to it that they are educated and well taken care of. One of the ways he assures they are well taken care of is that he knows his wife, has made a good judgement about her character and trusts in her abilities. It’s not about deciding on silly stuff like whether she should wear her blue dress or the red one.

    Like

  40. Maybe her husband enjoys being homeschool, wardrobe, and Bible czar–but I know my particular husband and no doubt a lot of others) would dislike being barraged with complicated and trivial questions during his “precious home time.”

    I am a competent woman. I’m sure my husband knew that before he married me and would’ve married someone else if he wanted to have to make every decision himself. What kind of man even needs this kind of submission? If a man has a lot of responsibility at work and a successful career then there is no need to do all of this. You don’t have “let” someone who actually is a competent man be a man. She is just coddling her husband.

    What this woman is actually saying that is she has to pretend to need help in some areas while hiding that things that she actually needs assistance with. If she needs a housekeeper or a mommy’s helper to manage her children and messy house and her husband can’t afford one he might feel badly. But if she pretends that all is well at home and that she needs to be told what to wear and which homeschool materials to choose then he feels like he can manage all her problems. But men shouldn’t need to be coddled in this way. Tell the truth so that he can improve his family’s life by resolving their actual problems.

    Liked by 1 person

  41. Maybe her husband enjoys being homeschool, wardrobe, and Bible czar–but I know my particular husband and no doubt a lot of others) would dislike being barraged with complicated and trivial questions during his “precious home time.”

    Like

  42. I read No Longer Quivering, and they were featuring this quote from a Nancy Campbell reader:

    “Let him be the man!

    “The greatest way I encourage my husband is to let him ‘be the man!’ Freeing our marriage from criticism and also my attempts to dominate and control has given him the freedom to be the godly man he is becoming. I ask his opinion and value his advice on everything—from our homeschool schedule and materials to my wardrobe and Biblical issues. I listen to him talk about work without trying to interject my thoughts. I try not to waste his precious home time complaining about my tough day. If he calls to ask how our day is going, I always tell him it’s great so he doesn’t dread coming home to chaos.

    “We try to pick up the clutter before he comes home. When he arrives home, we stop what we’re doing to run and hug him and let him know we’re glad he’s home.”

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/nolongerquivering/2017/03/encouraging-husband-part-2-respect/

    This is a really interesting example, because a) this woman says that she is letting her husband “be the man” and she seeks his opinion and values his advice on “everything” but b) she’s actually going out of her way to make sure he does not have a lot of information about the situation at home. She’s creating a Potemkin village for him by not telling him how her day is actually going, by hiding “chaos,” and making the house look completely different for his arrival than it looked when he was gone. This is all well-meant, but I think it borders on being deceptive.

    I certainly wonder whether her husband has even a fraction of the information he needs to make good decisions for this family. Also, she doesn’t want to “waste his precious home time complaining about my tough day,” but does her husband actually want to be homeschool, wardrobe and Bible czar?

    Like

  43. Nonya said:

    “A lot of these housewives are not being honest about the fact that they would earn so little money and have such high childcare expenses if they worked outside the home that it wouldn’t make sense for them to get jobs. Their husbands are working crazy hours because that is their best option. But of course they can’t just admit to that. They shame women whose work is well compensated for having jobs and talk about husbands like walking wallets instead.”

    Yeah. The specific math is important.

    For example, I could work retail all month and not make as much as my husband could doing an extra weekend of work.

    Like

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